Sorry Tony P, I didn't explain myself clearly.
Basic economics (supply and demand) is in play here but the point I wanted
to make is whereas you and I and everyone else on this forum have trams at
heart, the buyers and suppliers of automated technology do not. Their
interest is purely financial, in fact they don't care whether the trams
actually run or not, as long as the statistics show they do, that's all
these people are interested in.
As enthusiasts, we should be careful about embracing technology that is
going to either downskill or replace human operators. We've all enjoyed the
hospitality and enthusiasm of tramways and railways staff over the years,
both on tours and on regular service vehicles, are we really going to be
happy to see them go?
The link to railsystem.net is just a glossy brochure from the vendor, some
slick sales advice. Assuming the product does what they say it will do, are
we as enthusiasts happy to embrace it?
And it's not "inevitable progress" as some may say. That's the slogan the
pro-bus mob trotted out in the 1950s to get rid of tramways, and look how
well that went. It is actually possible to learn from the past.
Also the idea that public transport generally is a financial black hole is
something that, fortunately, fizzled out last century. These days we're
aware that the benefits of good PT go beyond a profit from the farebox,
there are social, environmental and economic benefits that are just as
important albeit harder (but not impossible) to measure. That's why the
authorities are planning and implementing increased frequencies across all
modes now, the old "provide it and they will come" philosophy.
Yes, let's embrace technology to improve the lot of everyone involved, but
do we really want to go to GoA4? Consider who benefits: the customer loses
the human staff touch; the driver loses a job (or is retrained to a
customer service role according to the slick sales pitch).
Who really wins?
Stuart
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 14:43 TP historyworks@...> wrote:
> The impetus for automation (GoA4) comes from the operators, not the
> manufacturers who are only responding to a latent demand, and the reasons
> are not so different from train automation, extrapolated to a street
> environment.
>
> https://railsystem.net/metro-automation/
>
> Also, for the operators, it's not a matter of increasing profits because
> there are none. It's about reining in huge losses. One of the significant
> reasons that we can't improve health or education even more is that so much
> money that could be used for that purpose is sucked into the financial
> black hole of public transport systems. So the general trend is to try to
> make them at least break even, without having to charge users extortionate
> fares or reducing services. That leaves cost savings and one of the biggest
> operational costs in a public transport system is staff.
>
> Tony P
>
> On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 06:05:26 UTC+11stuart....@...
> wrote:
>
>> It's worth bearing in mind that the people promoting automation aren't
>> doing it for altruistic reasons. Those doing the selling have a product
>> they want to make money from; those doing the buying also want to make
>> money by reducing costs and/or increasing profits.
>>
>> Both groups of people then work hard to convince the rest of us that
>> their products are not only desirable for us, but actually essential. (Eg,
>> "more trains/trams more often" - but they need to be computer controlled
>> because human drivers can't do it, even though we can all remember
>> continuous lines of W class trams running down Swanston St in the peaks in
>> the 1970s, 80s and 90s.
>>
>> Cost is another issue. How often are we as a society told that we can't
>> afford a better health system? Or a better education system? Or to provide
>> emergency accommodation for women fleeing domestic violence?
>>
>> As it turns out, there is money available, it's just being spent in ways
>> that don't benefit the general populace.
>>
>> S
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022, 14:56 TP histor...@...> wrote:
>>
>>> The satellite-based systems will still be needed for operations, but,
>>> yes, the automation should be on board. The satellite based comms to
>>> manufacturers are also widely used on private motor cars, have been for
>>> some years. They already know when your car needs service and what needs
>>> attention before you do. The older, savvy owner will still keep an
>>> independent eye on things of course, but not needed for the average A to B
>>> motorist.
>>>
>>> I see Adelaide, Canberra, Gold Coast, Sydney and Newcastle systems as
>>> all being basically ready for automation when the technology is firmed.
>>> Melbourne would have to approach it on a route by route basis.
>>>
>>> Any clues as to who that big company with the big mouth might be? I know
>>> of a couple of such companies in the public transport field!
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 7 December 2022 at 12:59:31 UTC+11
>>>mat...@... wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/12/22 11:42, Tony Galloway wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don’t think that this path is a smooth as many assume.
>>>>
>>>> Here’s a couple of things that might just make it a dead end :
>>>>
>>>> The Great 1859 Solar Storm - Carrington Event - YouTube
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUhK7WzprU4
>>>>
>>>> Kessler Syndrome - YouTube
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP-OwOc1AFQ
>>>>
>>>> Just saying
>>>>
>>>> I see the leading edge of this tech and the amount of money being
>>>> thrown at it due to where I work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The biggest problem with automated street transport at this time is the
>>>> big mouth of a certain company CEO who is prone to making outrageous claims
>>>> about his companies products. There are many other companies quietly
>>>> working on and deploying the enabling technologies.
>>>>
>>>> None of these enabling techs require satellite based location systems
>>>> or mobile radio network communication to work. The eventual deployed robust
>>>> systems will be truly autonomous. Cut the cable to the satellite/5G antenna
>>>> and they will still work.
>>>>
>>>> The mobile comms stuff is just fluff to allow the vendors to rip the
>>>> user off with 'fee for service' options and data collection for the sake of
>>>> data collection. And this sort of thing has already invaded public
>>>> transport - all new buses, trams and trains have mobile datalinks back to
>>>> the manufactures maintenance centers, collecting large amounts of data and
>>>> the guise of 'optimizing maintenance'.
>>>>
>>>> Mercedes even has a series of adverts spruiking this feature on their
>>>> commercial vehicle line. We are looking after you sort of thing.
>>>>
>>>> As much as they try however, the world is still going to need fitters,
>>>> mechanics and diagnostic technicians.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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