Re: Re: Exessive fandom at any cost - including safe public transport?
Bill Bolton
Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:37 PM
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:37:45 +1000, Greg wrote:
I believe that the social environment in which technology is applied
doesn't stand still and is constantly changing. The rate of change
varies due to a bunch of factors, but change in the social environment
is always occurring. Because of that change everything technological
has a "use by" date which comes around sooner or later, whether we
like it or not.
I have an interest in the history of public transit but I'm much more
interested in seeing today's Australian rail transit systems survive
because they have the right technology to do the job society expects
of them, than see older technology pushed beyond reasonable use by
dates for what seems to be nothing more than purely sentimental
reasons.
I'm a bit puzzled about what point you are trying to make here?
Since I made no general remarks about Ws, there's nothing to
challenge. My comments were not about Ws in general, they were very
specifically about W2s, particularly Bob's "unadorned" W2s.
I've watched passengers in the city walk past a W6/W7 at a stop and
get on a following Z or A or B (as appropriate) car on the same route.
That seems to me to be the passengers voting with their feet on that
issue.
Ultimately its what the day to day riders (in the case of Melbourne I
cant bring myself to use the more normal term "fare paying
passengers") think of comfort factors that count, not what you or I
think as rail/transit fans.
In had many rough trips on W6s and W7s over recent years and seen a
fair number of bingles where the tram rear ended another road vehicle.
I also know that neither of things happened anywhere near as much in
the past when the performance of motor vehicles was lower and the tram
fleet was all pretty much made up of vehicles with generically similar
technology.
Perhaps driving hand control trams "properly" is not a common skill
any longer? Whatever the reason, it seems to happen and if you found
the need to specifically mention "properly driven", I suspect an issue
of whether its a skill set that enough would-be drivers have any real
interest in acquiring today (i.e. social change in action again).
I think you are misunderstanding my commentary. I am not "putting the
boot in" at all, I am keen to see the Melbourne system survive and
prosper, but it can only do that if it is adequately responsive to
customer needs in a changing society and is prepared to employ
appropriate technology solutions to achieve that end.
Something to think about is that apart from the Glenelg line in
Adelaide, no other major transit operation in Australia is utilising
vehicles anywhere near as old as some of those in Melbourne tram fleet
in day to day traffic.
To get back to the original point of this topic... the social
environment which spawned W2s as an appropriate street transit
technology for Melbourne is long, long gone.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
FREE COLLEGE MONEY
CLICK HERE to search
600,000 scholarships!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/DiTxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
You obviously believe that everything modern has to be best etc.
I believe that the social environment in which technology is applied
doesn't stand still and is constantly changing. The rate of change
varies due to a bunch of factors, but change in the social environment
is always occurring. Because of that change everything technological
has a "use by" date which comes around sooner or later, whether we
like it or not.
I have an interest in the history of public transit but I'm much more
interested in seeing today's Australian rail transit systems survive
because they have the right technology to do the job society expects
of them, than see older technology pushed beyond reasonable use by
dates for what seems to be nothing more than purely sentimental
reasons.
cars from the Nisshi Nippon Railways and put brand new bodies on them, they
work fine with their modern counterparts.
I'm a bit puzzled about what point you are trying to make here?
I challange your remark that the W's are not as comfortable as the
new cars, sorry, that's rubbish
Since I made no general remarks about Ws, there's nothing to
challenge. My comments were not about Ws in general, they were very
specifically about W2s, particularly Bob's "unadorned" W2s.
I have worked on all our cars going back to 1973 and the W's are more
comfortable than any of the modern cars except for Air-con.
I've watched passengers in the city walk past a W6/W7 at a stop and
get on a following Z or A or B (as appropriate) car on the same route.
That seems to me to be the passengers voting with their feet on that
issue.
Ultimately its what the day to day riders (in the case of Melbourne I
cant bring myself to use the more normal term "fare paying
passengers") think of comfort factors that count, not what you or I
think as rail/transit fans.
A W properly driven is much better in modern traffic than a modern car
In had many rough trips on W6s and W7s over recent years and seen a
fair number of bingles where the tram rear ended another road vehicle.
I also know that neither of things happened anywhere near as much in
the past when the performance of motor vehicles was lower and the tram
fleet was all pretty much made up of vehicles with generically similar
technology.
Perhaps driving hand control trams "properly" is not a common skill
any longer? Whatever the reason, it seems to happen and if you found
the need to specifically mention "properly driven", I suspect an issue
of whether its a skill set that enough would-be drivers have any real
interest in acquiring today (i.e. social change in action again).
Like I said, I don't mind the system having the boot stuck in to it when it
needs it, but look at the other street systems in Australia and tell me one
that's better and actually atracting passengers!
I think you are misunderstanding my commentary. I am not "putting the
boot in" at all, I am keen to see the Melbourne system survive and
prosper, but it can only do that if it is adequately responsive to
customer needs in a changing society and is prepared to employ
appropriate technology solutions to achieve that end.
Something to think about is that apart from the Glenelg line in
Adelaide, no other major transit operation in Australia is utilising
vehicles anywhere near as old as some of those in Melbourne tram fleet
in day to day traffic.
To get back to the original point of this topic... the social
environment which spawned W2s as an appropriate street transit
technology for Melbourne is long, long gone.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
FREE COLLEGE MONEY
CLICK HERE to search
600,000 scholarships!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/DiTxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/