Re: Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
IS Edit
Thursday, December 6, 2001 5:55 AM
What exactly about them?
They are used for serious transport services and carry large numbers of
passengers, in the case of the F line at least, many of them with
alternative transit lines available.
In the case of the cable cars, until the tourist hordes forced them off they
were the preferred means of transport of a lot of San Franciscans as well.
Nostalgia? Pigs arse. They were fun, and appropriate despite the fact that,
for the most part, we were going to thoroughly contemporary destinations.
The correlation between socio-economic class and travel times was the faster
the public transport line in relation to the use of motor cars the more you
got riders who had alternatives not flat broke losers or battlers with no
option. The corollary of higher socio-economic class of passengers is that
the "higher" ones were better able to bend the political system to their
will and they become an effective pro-public transport lobby group.
I haven't bothered to read the old M&MTB Annual Reports but then of course
they would say that despite the huge increases in dwell time, the endless
queuing in front of the conductors throne, the high breakdown rate, the
rough ride, the high floor, the jerky acceleration etc etc.
It cracks me up how many people like to insulate themselves from their urban
environment and do so with servo-mechanisms, air-conditioning, security
grills, etc etc etc and prefer to travel in their little capsules to
suburban shopping centres with muzak and air-conditioning. Most of us people
who used to revel in the buzz of the city, both here and in San Francisco
were not trying to secede from our environment. We did not particularly feel
the need to put it behind glass and sealed doors.
But then that's a mindset that the insulares would never understand. Poor
little things. They tend to feel threatened by the big smoke, they tend to
hide from it and by mentality would only use public transport under duress
anyway. So you're statistically not likely to induce them from their cars
voluntarily at a practical price anyway. They are the ones who scurry home
to their little yuppie filing cabinets or their 1/4 acre blocks in the
suburbs where the population density is too low to adequately service by
public transport anyway.
But those poor little things bore themselves stupid then they get in their
cars and drive to St Kilda and Carlton on weekends and detract from the
tenor of those neighbourhoods where I had the pleasure to live for a decade,
some time ago.
I'm talking about a different mindset, Bill. I don't know whether you are
trying to have a lend of me or you just don 't get it.
Perhaps Tinseltown with its single modern but ridiculous token tram is just
right for you. But, think what Glebe Point Road would be like with W class
type trams on it. Perfect. hahahahahahaha
Bob Murphy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bolton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Tiny Wireless Camera under $80!
Order Now! FREE VCR Commander!
Click Here - Only 1 Day Left!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/DiTxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
They are used for serious transport services and carry large numbers of
passengers, in the case of the F line at least, many of them with
alternative transit lines available.
In the case of the cable cars, until the tourist hordes forced them off they
were the preferred means of transport of a lot of San Franciscans as well.
Nostalgia? Pigs arse. They were fun, and appropriate despite the fact that,
for the most part, we were going to thoroughly contemporary destinations.
The correlation between socio-economic class and travel times was the faster
the public transport line in relation to the use of motor cars the more you
got riders who had alternatives not flat broke losers or battlers with no
option. The corollary of higher socio-economic class of passengers is that
the "higher" ones were better able to bend the political system to their
will and they become an effective pro-public transport lobby group.
I haven't bothered to read the old M&MTB Annual Reports but then of course
they would say that despite the huge increases in dwell time, the endless
queuing in front of the conductors throne, the high breakdown rate, the
rough ride, the high floor, the jerky acceleration etc etc.
It cracks me up how many people like to insulate themselves from their urban
environment and do so with servo-mechanisms, air-conditioning, security
grills, etc etc etc and prefer to travel in their little capsules to
suburban shopping centres with muzak and air-conditioning. Most of us people
who used to revel in the buzz of the city, both here and in San Francisco
were not trying to secede from our environment. We did not particularly feel
the need to put it behind glass and sealed doors.
But then that's a mindset that the insulares would never understand. Poor
little things. They tend to feel threatened by the big smoke, they tend to
hide from it and by mentality would only use public transport under duress
anyway. So you're statistically not likely to induce them from their cars
voluntarily at a practical price anyway. They are the ones who scurry home
to their little yuppie filing cabinets or their 1/4 acre blocks in the
suburbs where the population density is too low to adequately service by
public transport anyway.
But those poor little things bore themselves stupid then they get in their
cars and drive to St Kilda and Carlton on weekends and detract from the
tenor of those neighbourhoods where I had the pleasure to live for a decade,
some time ago.
I'm talking about a different mindset, Bill. I don't know whether you are
trying to have a lend of me or you just don 't get it.
Perhaps Tinseltown with its single modern but ridiculous token tram is just
right for you. But, think what Glebe Point Road would be like with W class
type trams on it. Perfect. hahahahahahaha
Bob Murphy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bolton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:46:58 +1100, Bill wrote:SF'sWhat about San Francisco's F line streetcars, New Orleans streetcars,
forcable cars?
What exactly about them?What about the new tram systems all over the US using historical trams
stockreal transport purposes?
If you look at how those system s are used, with the (only partial)
exception of the SF, most of the others exist specifically to handle
tourist style traffic between tourist style destinations. They may
serve a "real tranport purposes" in moving tourists but they are
mostly, at best, small side shows in public movement of residents in
the cities concerned.The ridership level increases when transport systems got new rolling
lighting,was as much related to concomitant improvements in stations/stops,
strongsecurity and often reduced travel times. There was a package deal.
There are clearly benefits arising in terms of ridership levels in
keeping the whole infrastructure package of any particular mode
reasonably up to date, but there is also clear evidince that just
providing relatively new vehicles has a significnat positive impact on
ridership in itself.Also keep in mind some studies done in San Francisco that showed a
motorcorrelation between the socio-economic status of transit riders and the
speed of that transit service in a given transit corridor vs private
cars.
What was the correlation Bob?So no parallel between PCC introduction and the introduction
of modern cars here in Melbourne.
The M&MTB annual reports and press reports at the time indicated very
high levels of acceptance and prefenece for the new Z trams over the
existing cars.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Tiny Wireless Camera under $80!
Order Now! FREE VCR Commander!
Click Here - Only 1 Day Left!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/DiTxlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/