Re: Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
IS Edit
Thursday, December 6, 2001 1:46 AM
Bill:
What about San Francisco's F line streetcars, New Orleans streetcars, SF's
cable cars?
What about the new tram systems all over the US using historical trams for
real transport purposes?
The ridership level increases when transport systems got new rolling stock
was as much related to concomitant improvements in stations/stops, lighting,
security and often reduced travel times. There was a package deal.
Also keep in mind some studies done in San Francisco that showed a strong
correlation between the socio-economic status of transit riders and the
speed of that transit service in a given transit corridor vs private motor
cars. That has bugger all to do with the age of the vehicles with the caveat
that NO ONE that I know likes riding noisy, rough riding old buses.
The PCC car offered huge performance advantages over most other streetcars
at the time. In Melbourne the new cars did not do that. In fact, the Z cars
with their long queues of passengers waiting before the conductors altar
actually increased dwell times to the point where their introduction was a
minus for running times and reliability during peak hours and even the
between peak base period. Their speed was of no use, their floors were
higher, their ride was rougher, their breakdown rate was more than 3x as
high etc etc. So no parallel between PCC introduction and the introduction
of modern cars here in Melbourne.
I'm not talking about turning back the clock, Bill. The point I was making
about dropping those buggered Ws off the pier is that half-arsed, stupid
attempts to make them something they weren't buggered them. They had no
respect for their design or their functionality. They were too stupid to see
the value.
I mentioned Europeans to do an automated ticketing system because I've been
using them in Europe since the mid-60s and never had any problems with them
there. And I wanted to make the point that there is NO known skills base
within the operating transport entities in Melbourne capable of developing
or even selecting a workable, multi-modal ticketing system.
Bob Murphy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bolton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
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What about San Francisco's F line streetcars, New Orleans streetcars, SF's
cable cars?
What about the new tram systems all over the US using historical trams for
real transport purposes?
The ridership level increases when transport systems got new rolling stock
was as much related to concomitant improvements in stations/stops, lighting,
security and often reduced travel times. There was a package deal.
Also keep in mind some studies done in San Francisco that showed a strong
correlation between the socio-economic status of transit riders and the
speed of that transit service in a given transit corridor vs private motor
cars. That has bugger all to do with the age of the vehicles with the caveat
that NO ONE that I know likes riding noisy, rough riding old buses.
The PCC car offered huge performance advantages over most other streetcars
at the time. In Melbourne the new cars did not do that. In fact, the Z cars
with their long queues of passengers waiting before the conductors altar
actually increased dwell times to the point where their introduction was a
minus for running times and reliability during peak hours and even the
between peak base period. Their speed was of no use, their floors were
higher, their ride was rougher, their breakdown rate was more than 3x as
high etc etc. So no parallel between PCC introduction and the introduction
of modern cars here in Melbourne.
I'm not talking about turning back the clock, Bill. The point I was making
about dropping those buggered Ws off the pier is that half-arsed, stupid
attempts to make them something they weren't buggered them. They had no
respect for their design or their functionality. They were too stupid to see
the value.
I mentioned Europeans to do an automated ticketing system because I've been
using them in Europe since the mid-60s and never had any problems with them
there. And I wanted to make the point that there is NO known skills base
within the operating transport entities in Melbourne capable of developing
or even selecting a workable, multi-modal ticketing system.
Bob Murphy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bolton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Melbourne Historic Fleet - thoughts
On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:53:28 +1100, wrote:areSorry to tear into your dogma...
If paying attention to the real research, both here and overseas,
that has been done over the years into what makes transit system
atractive riders is being dogmatic, the I'm very happy to plead
guilty.They'd rather have a tin can on rails now than a pleasure barge later.
In the short term perhaps, but there is plenty of direct evidence in
terms of reported ridership figures from both Australia and around the
world that the age (newer is better) of the vehicle, no matter how
good its state of repair, has a high correlation with patrons
committing to long term usage of public transport.
The Electric Railway Presidents Conference Committee knew this in US
in the '30s when the came up with the PCC design. So did the M&MTB,
NSWGT, BCC etc in Australia when they built large numbers of new, drop
centre saloon style cars in the '30s.by a stupid attempt to take a shortcut on brake adjustment. Those cars
annow knackered and they might as well go sink them off St Kilda Pier for
systemartificial reef.
So what's all the argy bargy about then Bob? As much as you'd like to
turn back the clock, pragmatically it isn't going to happen.We should get some Europeans in to establish a reasonable ticketing
bb> functional issues in terms of selecting a ticketing system.for trams, trains and buses in Melbourne.
"We" don't need to do that, there are Australian companies who knwo
how to do ita nd have done itsuccesfully on an international basis
Unfortunately none of them are located in Victoria and successive
Victorian governments have allowed parochial interest to override
Both ways, we were Jeffed.
Well, we agree on something at least!
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton
Sydney, Australia
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