Re: Re: Running Ws & Other Old Cars In Service
Greg King
Wednesday, December 5, 2001 9:35 AM
Hi John,
You have hit the nail right on the head in every aspect, I even accept your
critique of what I said about the gutterliners but, it was to stress a
point. You are absolutely right in the need for a vocal focus group and YOU
are well aware of lack of co-operation between groups and individuals, not
just trams, but trains, buses, you name it. The tramway museum could have
had the best operation in the world a few years ago but, they were scared
they would'nt be able to play trams whenever they wanted, to the loss of the
preservation movement also, because of their attitudes (and you know the
gunzels I elude to) they have no respect (and deservedly so) from government
or the companies. As for the fare collection, again, guilty as charged, it's
a half arsed system loosely based on European practise, the difference is,
in Europe it works, I know why but it would take all night to explain and
get us nowhere. I have contacted Bob Murphy off list and something MAY
happen in the future, keep in touch off line, it's very sensitive and I have
to tread carefully due to my position, Muni has the Market Street Railway
group, maybe we can have a Bourke Street Railway group!! Better still, how
about a group called the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board????????
By the way, don't sell yourself short, as far as I'm concerned you are an
honourary Melbournian
Greg
definitely missing in Melbourne is fan and enthusiast support for the
trams. Oh yeah, they all do a lot of talking, but when it comes to "Put Up
or Shut Up", they shut up. It is almost like Philadelphia - there are
zillions of fans, but none of them can get their act together. Melbourne
drastically needs an organization like Market Street Railway in S.F. to
pull together most of the fansto put pressure on the Government and the
operating tram companies. There is a tremendous amount of infighting among
tram fans inAustralia, and getting one faction to agree with another is like
mediating a war cease-fire. Some like the Ws while others hate them and
call the ones who do like them idiots, some like the new cars, while
certain others (mainly a few in Sydney - and I'm sure many will know who I
mean) think that only their views are valid. And to Greg, while I
certainly respect you and your views, I do think that the majority of your
passengers would much rather be on a tram than a gutterliner. It's just
that the apathy in Melbourne is legendary. And don't even get me started on
fare evasion. The Government and the operators have brought that entire
fiasco on themselves, and short of changing the entire system to a PAYE
operation with front entrance and center exit cars (and even embracing that
"awful American and Canadian system" of fareboxes - which does work even on
super heavy loading routes - and has for eons), the fare evasion will not
stop. Melbourne had a chance to go to a PAYE farebox system with the Z1
and Z2 trams, let it slip a little with the Z3s, and then absolutely blew
it with the As and Bs. One man operation cannot, and in my opinion, will
not ever work with all those wide open doors. It has become a sport to see
how often you can ride without ever paying a fare. I know people who have
not paid a fare in three years! It is remarkably easy to beat the system,
with just a little bit of effort and inconvenience. The "official line"
fare evasion rate of approx. 12% is absurd - all one has to do is ride a
lot and it is obvious that well over 50% of tram passengers have no
intention of buying a ticket, and if they do have one it is only to be used
when inspectors get on the tram. When one does get on, there is always a
mad dash to the validators and ticket machines. Anyway, back to the
subject -- All the Melbourne fans have to get together and put theirmoney
and their efforts where their mouths are. There are 200 Ws at Newport and
Preston just waiting for a chance to get out and stretch their legs again.
200 extra trams would draw a whole heck of a lotof passengers back to public
transport. ++++++++++++ John Engleman
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You have hit the nail right on the head in every aspect, I even accept your
critique of what I said about the gutterliners but, it was to stress a
point. You are absolutely right in the need for a vocal focus group and YOU
are well aware of lack of co-operation between groups and individuals, not
just trams, but trains, buses, you name it. The tramway museum could have
had the best operation in the world a few years ago but, they were scared
they would'nt be able to play trams whenever they wanted, to the loss of the
preservation movement also, because of their attitudes (and you know the
gunzels I elude to) they have no respect (and deservedly so) from government
or the companies. As for the fare collection, again, guilty as charged, it's
a half arsed system loosely based on European practise, the difference is,
in Europe it works, I know why but it would take all night to explain and
get us nowhere. I have contacted Bob Murphy off list and something MAY
happen in the future, keep in touch off line, it's very sensitive and I have
to tread carefully due to my position, Muni has the Market Street Railway
group, maybe we can have a Bourke Street Railway group!! Better still, how
about a group called the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board????????
By the way, don't sell yourself short, as far as I'm concerned you are an
honourary Melbournian
Greg
While I am not a full time Melbourian, I have and do spend enough timethere to be able to understand what is going on there. One thing that is
definitely missing in Melbourne is fan and enthusiast support for the
trams. Oh yeah, they all do a lot of talking, but when it comes to "Put Up
or Shut Up", they shut up. It is almost like Philadelphia - there are
zillions of fans, but none of them can get their act together. Melbourne
drastically needs an organization like Market Street Railway in S.F. to
pull together most of the fansto put pressure on the Government and the
operating tram companies. There is a tremendous amount of infighting among
tram fans inAustralia, and getting one faction to agree with another is like
mediating a war cease-fire. Some like the Ws while others hate them and
call the ones who do like them idiots, some like the new cars, while
certain others (mainly a few in Sydney - and I'm sure many will know who I
mean) think that only their views are valid. And to Greg, while I
certainly respect you and your views, I do think that the majority of your
passengers would much rather be on a tram than a gutterliner. It's just
that the apathy in Melbourne is legendary. And don't even get me started on
fare evasion. The Government and the operators have brought that entire
fiasco on themselves, and short of changing the entire system to a PAYE
operation with front entrance and center exit cars (and even embracing that
"awful American and Canadian system" of fareboxes - which does work even on
super heavy loading routes - and has for eons), the fare evasion will not
stop. Melbourne had a chance to go to a PAYE farebox system with the Z1
and Z2 trams, let it slip a little with the Z3s, and then absolutely blew
it with the As and Bs. One man operation cannot, and in my opinion, will
not ever work with all those wide open doors. It has become a sport to see
how often you can ride without ever paying a fare. I know people who have
not paid a fare in three years! It is remarkably easy to beat the system,
with just a little bit of effort and inconvenience. The "official line"
fare evasion rate of approx. 12% is absurd - all one has to do is ride a
lot and it is obvious that well over 50% of tram passengers have no
intention of buying a ticket, and if they do have one it is only to be used
when inspectors get on the tram. When one does get on, there is always a
mad dash to the validators and ticket machines. Anyway, back to the
subject -- All the Melbourne fans have to get together and put theirmoney
and their efforts where their mouths are. There are 200 Ws at Newport and
Preston just waiting for a chance to get out and stretch their legs again.
200 extra trams would draw a whole heck of a lotof passengers back to public
transport. ++++++++++++ John Engleman
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
See What You've Been Missing!
Amazing Wireless Video Camera.
Click here
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/