Re: Why Sydney will end up with three incompatible metro train lines
  Tony Galloway

For some reason you have to click on reply to read this :

> On 30 May 2023, at 10:26, Tony Galloway arg@...> wrote:

>

>

> Not everyone buys the ideological bullshit about these bogus sewer trains driving unsustainable overdevelopment.

>

> Not everyone buys the dystopian Triguboff “vision” of Sydney as a treeless concrete high rise hellhole from the coast to the mountains - “if people want to see a tree, they can go to Katoomba”.

>

> Triguboff's own words, supposedly spoken in “jest”. Yeah right.

>

> Of course, they will be accused of “not knowing what they are talking about”, but that has never stopped others blathering about things they know nothing about, don’t care about, and have no understanding of - like the environment and sustainability.

>

> Tony

>

> Letters https://www.smh.com.au/topic/smh-letters-1r7

> Why does Sydney have three incompatible train systems?

>

> MAY 29, 2023

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> 22

> The dysfunction and mismanagement of the previous NSW government’s transport minister and department continues to give (“Lines too different to share trains https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5d78h”, May 29). From ferries not fitting under bridges to not coping with sea-swells, trains with structural cracks and safety issues delaying use for three years and cost and delivery overruns, we now have three metro lines in one city that are incompatible with each other. Who was in charge – the Joker? It would be funny if it wasn’t real. Utopia scriptwriters, take note. Rowan Godwin, Rozelle

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> Commuters at a Sydney train station. CREDIT: PHOTO: KATE GERAGHTY

> Upgrades to trains, power and signalling on the Sydney trains network also creates incompatibilities between trains and tracks. A sensible government and network operator plots an upgrade path that prioritises commonality for maximum service at lowest cost. A major mistake of the previous government is dedicated airport trains and lines. The best airport rail service is a metropolitan rail network that allows easy access to airports via every combination of rail lines.

>

> The thing the people of NSW must protect, that the industry may not, is the relationship between trains, platforms and rail corridors that puts our Waratahs among the world’s best commuter trains. Within these dimensions, we can still do better for people with shopping and baggage, and for faster entry and exit at the busiest stations. Peter Egan, Mosman

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> Only in Australia could there be a decision so manifestly stupid as the one revealed in today’s story. The sheer lunacy of building three new incredibly expensive projects to different specifications defies any logic. And then we learn the carriages on the Western Sydney Airport line are too wide for the Metro West line, meaning passengers will need to change trains at St Marys. I simply have no words to express my anger at this stupidity. Ross Corrigan, Redfern

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> Transport and planning consultant Alex Gooding says in the story that “we are building a system from the ground up, but the previous government appeared to have deliberately designed a range of incompatible features, which makes no sense”. I can only assume it was incompetence or political convenience. Or both? Paul Reid, Campsie

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> More news of another transport project in Sydney which is incompatible with all previous transport projects. When it came to building public transport infrastructure, no one could ever accuse the former Coalition government of seeing the big picture. Doug Walker, Baulkham Hills

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> Alex Gooding clearly explains the lack of technical standardisation and thus the interoperability problems in the new Sydney metro lines. Limiting all subsequent metro lines to the same technical specifications as the original contract may have been anti-competitive, but it could have helped. Sadly, the current metro technical shemozzle is a result of the previous state government’s urge to dis-integrate and privatise separate parts of our public transport system. Evan Bailey, Glebe

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> After so many years of outsourcing, privatising and avoiding pesky unions, the Coalition has left NSW with a system that defies logic. Transport Minister Jo Haylen believes transport should work for passengers: well, that will be a first. I wish her luck. Where does she begin? Nola Tucker, Kiama

>

> The NSW Labor government has inherited the poorly designed Metro mess. I suppose there are water-tight contracts and potentially large financial penalties if the government tries to fix the mess. I hope it will be a constant reminder of what not to do in the future. Denis Goodwin, Dee Why

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>

>> On 29 May 2023, at 13:02, TP historyworks@... mailto:historyworks@smartchat.net.au> wrote:

>>

>> As I mentioned on the bus forum Brian, the station boxes are excavated to more than 8 car train length, but at the opening stage the platforms will be for 4 cars. At the 2 minute headways that the metro is capable of, four car metro trains can move about 22,500 passengers per hour per direction. This is almost as many as the busiest peak service that the suburban system is capable of (the lower North Shore) which can move about 24,000 pphpd.

>>

>> Tony P

>>

>> On Monday, 29 May 2023 at 12:44:26 UTC+10bblun...@... http://yahoo.com/ wrote:

>> I was concerned to read that the WSA Metro was going to be restricted to 4-car trains.

>>

>> Is this going to impede future growth on a 50 km route?

>>

>> Brian

>>

>> On Monday, 29 May 2023 at 12:16:11 pm AEST, TP histor...@... <applewebdata://42FED465-A9D3-4B89-AA86-3D50ACC3EC50>> wrote:

>>

>>

>> There will be no need for rolling stock transfers between lines. They're all going to grow in patronage, so each will get additional new stock as it grows. No line will be in a position to give up stock.

>>

>> The Western Sydney (Airport) Metro is going to be over 50 km long when it's completed through to Schofields and Macarthur. That's not short!

>>

>> Yes, the suburban system will be able to roll out automation as the ETCS is expanded, but the RTBU (which is represented on the Administrative Committee of the NSW ALP) will ensure that there's still a driver at the front, even though he'll only be reading a book during the journey, and guards to stick their heads out at the back - plus the Fat Controller on the station to deploy the accessible ramp. And thus this 19th century crock will reverse into the future.

>>

>> Tony P

>>

>> On Monday, 29 May 2023 at 11:03:16 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:

>> There is a difference between operating lines independently to

>> deliberately making them technically incompatible so that even things

>> like rolling stock transfers to balance changing demands are impossible.

>>

>> The only good thing is that maybe these other two lines will get an

>> automation that can properly drive the trains unlike the 'bang-bang'

>> controller Alstom has on the NW metro.

>>

>> I still can't see the justification for making the airport metro 25kv

>> AC. Short route, short trains. The route is sufficiently short that

>> having 3 phase breaks to balance the load will be an issue, so they may

>> have to go to 'converter' substations that take 3 phase from the

>> distribution network, turn it into DC and then into single phase AC for

>> the overhead. Then each train has to take the single phase AC, step it

>> down, turn it into DC and then feed it into a VVVF converter to make 3

>> phase for the train motors.

>>

>> Will the extra complexity offset the 'transmission efficiency' of the

>> 25kv OCS ?

>>

>> I'm waiting for some one to realize that automation could be applied to

>> the double-deck stock too. Not to many more years till some one realizes

>> the ETCS upgrade for Sydney trains is a precursor to GoA4 on the

>> 'conventional' network. The union will not be impressed, but by blocking

>> DOO they have made the case for automation stronger.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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