I have assumed best average 3 minute headways for Sydney. Perth's with the
current signalling is 4 minutes, with the new signalling it will be two
minutes (30 trains per hour), like Sydney Metro.
Tony P
On Thursday, 9 June 2022 at 15:49:57 UTC+10gregsut...@... wrote:
> Hi Tony
>
> Is your capacity comparison of 50% Perth/Sydney Suburban based on the
> current Sydney vintage signalling or on the signalling system currently
> being rolled out?
>
> Martin Place to Central, even before the completion of the signalling
> upgrade project is already seeing trains timetabled through Town Hall
> outwards on afternoon/pm peak hour services with headways
>
> 2 mins, 7, 3, 6, 4, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4
>
> Greg
>
>
> On 7/06/2022 8:48 pm, TP wrote:
>
> Perth currently has a line capacity of about 18,000 people per hour per
> direction (4 minute headways) with the present signalling. When the HCS
> project is complete and the C series trains on line, it will have a
> capacity, if required, of 36,000 pphpd, some 50% more than the capacity of
> the Sydney suburban system.
>
>
> https://infrastructuremagazine.com.au/2022/03/10/high-capacity-signalling-to-maximise-perth-rail-traffic-efficiency/
>
> That's based on six-car trains, which the system is designed for. The
> greater potential capacity of Sydney Metro is based on eight-car trains.
>
> Tony P
>
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2022 at 20:29:49 UTC+10 jewiwa wrote:
>
>> There is a distinct divergence of the meaning of the term 'metro' in
>> Cairo. It is applied officially to a dedicated high-frequency passenger
>> railway that at the time of my two visits, ran north to south (as far as
>> Helwan) and has subsequently, I think, had an east-west addition made to
>> it. A visitor from Paris would liken it more to an RER service than a
>> métro, but it would seem to tick all of Tony's boxes. On the other hand,
>> there is a well-entrenched colloquial usage of metro to signify the tram
>> lines serving Heliopolis, which presumably arose (out of a company title?)
>> to distinguish those lines, which enjoy quite a bit of private right of
>> way, from the Cairo city lines (almost entirely abandoned), which did not.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> JWW.
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...> on
>> behalf of Dudley Horscroft transit...@...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, 6 June 2022 9:58 AM
>> *To:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...>
>> *Subject:* Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Sydney Metro reaffirms safety and
>> reliability
>>
>>
>> Paris copied London's Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways,
>> which became the Metropolitan and District Railways ( and then Lines)
>> before Paris though of it.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Dudley
>> On 6/06/2022 11:55 am, Stuart Keenan wrote:
>>
>> The term "Metro" seems to have been seized by corporate and marketing
>> types in recent years and used in their attempts to sell a train or rail
>> line to the wider community as something sleek, futuristic, glossy, etc.
>>
>> However a Google search turns up Compagnie du chemin de fer métropolitain
>> de Paris, the Paris Metropolitan Railway Company Ltd which is shortened to
>> Le Metropolitain or Metro (which opened 120yrs ago). Interestingly, the
>> same article says the term Metro is an example of a genericized trademark
>> and has been adopted in many languages "...making it the most used word for
>> a (generally underground) urban transit *system*."
>>
>> The metro marketing enthusiasts espouse "high capacity, high speed, high
>> frequency" trains as attributes that poop all over your regular suburban
>> operation. I've not visited Paris but I have used the London tube. On any
>> one line there, could the trains be described as high capacity? No, they're
>> all quite small carriages marshalled (from memory) as 6 or 8 car sets,
>> depending on the line. High speed? Hardly, they don't attain any great
>> speed but they're probably the quickest way around that big city so using
>> that criteria, yes to high speed. High frequency? On the centre section of
>> each line they run every 2 minutes or so in the peak so yes to frequency
>> although there is some short working involved so the outer ends of each
>> line miss out somewhat.
>>
>> So does any one or two lines anywhere qualify as a Metro? Well nothing is
>> legislated so any individual is free to label anything as he or she sees
>> fit so if you want to brand Sydney's suburban line to Penrith as a Metro,
>> you absolutely can! (Not sure what you'll do to justify all those
>> intercity's, coal trains and the Indian Pacific though...) But if we're
>> talking about what seems to be internationally accepted convention, then
>> it's systems or networks with certain features that are Metro, not
>> individual lines.
>>
>> That being the case, then Perth is the closest we have, although it's
>> more accurate to describe it as a high performance (rapid acceleration,
>> hard braking) suburban system, yes a "metro in waiting"!
>>
>> The automated suburban line in Sydney may morph into a metro some time in
>> the future, if enough lines are added to make it a true system and not what
>> is currently planned which is one long north-west to south-west line and a
>> short east-west one.
>>
>> S
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 23:37 Daniel Bowen danie...@...> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Tony.
>>
>> I'm still not sure how Perth meets those criteria (and I appreciate there
>> are shades of grey, and yes you're right, everyone has a different
>> definition!).
>>
>> Perth's rail headways are mostly 15-30 minutes, not exactly high
>> frequency except in peak. Not all trains stop all stops, a number of lines
>> have express services.
>>
>> Is it fast? A quick comparison of the Fremantle line to Melbourne's
>> Sandringham line (which of course is run by an operator with the name
>> "Metro" but is really a suburban rail line) indicates similar length and
>> average speed (37.4 km/h vs 35.8 km/h). Obviously Perth has some faster
>> lines along the freeways.
>>
>> Interesting paper, thanks for that.
>>
>> But I'm afraid I'm not seeing what makes it a "metro".
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 at 22:51, TP histor...@...> wrote:
>>
>> Perth and Sydney Metro systems are rapid transit systems. This article
>> explores the concept in some detail.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRapid_transit&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2qI4LcS6KYJVnba0ctKJl3uGLF%2FjyiOBylIv6SknsuY%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> There are variations in detail and in names given to the system but the
>> common factors include high capacity, close headways, stopping at all stops
>> and very quick journey times. The conversion of the Perth system to a metro
>> (rapid transit) system is described in this paper by its principal creator.
>>
>>
>> https://cotma.org.au/documents/perth_2018/The%20story%20of%20electric%20trains%20coming%20to%20Perth%20-%20Alan%20Cotton.pdf
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcotma.org.au%2Fdocuments%2Fperth_2018%2FThe%2520story%2520of%2520electric%2520trains%2520coming%2520to%2520Perth%2520-%2520Alan%2520Cotton.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AprTiByko0q1sXdxN0%2Fq8CdXsRE%2FSrZb%2FHvxblDG5eI%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Suburban or commuter rail is a different beast, although there are
>> naturally overlapping characteristics. Be warned, 1,001 different railway
>> enthusiasts will come up with 1,001 different arguments to challenge these
>> definitions, which is fair enough because there are inevitably grey edges
>> according to the requirements of different individual cities. However, the
>> basic concepts are distinct.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommuter_rail&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lKBKzT22JW8vnZKaPdARLB30df0m33rnalNUaFDR8HY%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Tony P
>>
>> On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 22:26:47 UTC+10danie...@... wrote:
>>
>> Hey Tony, I'm interested to know how you classify a "metro" vs a
>> "suburban rail system", and thus how Perth has transitioned from one to the
>> other?
>>
>> I still think of Perth's network as suburban rail, along with Melbourne,
>> Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney Trains. Sydney Metro is clearly different.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 at 14:21, TP histor...@...> wrote:
>>
>> It is pretty much the same as other metros I've used, but probably best
>> to compare it with other automated metros. It doesn't quite have the
>> acceleration and deceleration of Prague but I think not many would! It's
>> more comfortable than most, more like Perth which was lucky enough to
>> replace its entire suburban system with a metro system. Sydney and Perth
>> metros are evenly matched for performance given the same parameters
>> (station spacing, number of stops).
>>
>> However, in situations like Sydney where there are two different types of
>> system running side by side doing the same job, the comparison is valid.
>> The metro smokes the suburban system on every criterion: speed and journey
>> time, capacity, frequency, reliability and customer satisfaction. A better
>> opportunity to compare will of course be when that line opens through to
>> Bankstown and the other lines start opening, particularly Metro West.
>> Melbourne will have its turn before too long.
>>
>> Tony P
>>
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 13:13:25 UTC+10eme...@... wrote:
>>
>> The other point is that metro operations should ideally be compared to
>> other metro systems.
>>
>> How does Sydney compare to Paris, Washington, Prague, for example?
>>
>> If it's worse than these, explanations must be sought. If, otoh, it is
>> better, then let's not be worried.
>>
>> I'm also more concerned that in cities like Melbourne and Sydney, the
>> rail system is trying to do the work that metros do elsewhere. Or, in the
>> case of Adelaide, heavy rail is trying to do the work of trams on several
>> routes. Using the wrong mode for the job always means inefficiencies that
>> can be used to scrap that mode.
>>
>>
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