Hi Tony

Is your capacity comparison of 50% Perth/Sydney Suburban based on the current Sydney vintage signalling or on the signalling system currently being rolled out?

Martin Place to Central, even before the completion of the signalling upgrade project is already seeing trains timetabled through Town Hall outwards on afternoon/pm peak hour services with headways

2 mins, 7, 3, 6, 4, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3, 7, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4

Greg

On 7/06/2022 8:48 pm, TP wrote:
> Perth currently has a line capacity of about 18,000 people per hour per direction (4 minute headways) with the present signalling. When the HCS project is complete and the C series trains on line, it will have a capacity, if required, of 36,000 pphpd, some 50% more than the capacity of the Sydney suburban system.

>

> https://infrastructuremagazine.com.au/2022/03/10/high-capacity-signalling-to-maximise-perth-rail-traffic-efficiency/

>

> That's based on six-car trains, which the system is designed for. The greater potential capacity of Sydney Metro is based on eight-car trains.

>

> Tony P

>

> On Tuesday, 7 June 2022 at 20:29:49 UTC+10 jewiwa wrote:

>

> There is a distinct divergence of the meaning of the term 'metro'

> in Cairo. It is applied officially to a dedicated high-frequency

> passenger railway that at the time of my two visits, ran north to

> south (as far as Helwan) and has subsequently, I think, had an

> east-west addition made to it. A visitor from Paris would liken it

> more to an RER service than a métro, but it would seem to tick all

> of Tony's boxes. On the other hand, there is a well-entrenched

> colloquial usage of metro to signify the tram lines serving

> Heliopolis, which presumably arose (out of a company title?) to

> distinguish those lines, which enjoy quite a bit of private right

> of way, from the Cairo city lines (almost entirely abandoned),

> which did not.

>

> Cheers,

>

> JWW.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...>

> on behalf of Dudley Horscroft transit...@...>

> *Sent:* Monday, 6 June 2022 9:58 AM

> *To:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...>

> *Subject:* Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Sydney Metro reaffirms safety

> and reliability

>

> Paris copied London's Metropolitan and Metropolitan District

> Railways, which became the Metropolitan and District Railways (

> and then Lines) before Paris though of it.

>

> Regards

>

> Dudley

>

> On 6/06/2022 11:55 am, Stuart Keenan wrote:

>> The term "Metro" seems to have been seized by corporate and

>> marketing types in recent years and used in their attempts to

>> sell a train or rail line to the wider community as something

>> sleek, futuristic, glossy, etc.

>>

>> However a Google search turns up Compagnie du chemin de fer

>> métropolitain de Paris, the Paris Metropolitan Railway Company

>> Ltd which is shortened to Le Metropolitain or Metro (which opened

>> 120yrs ago). Interestingly, the same article says the term Metro

>> is an example of a genericized trademark and has been adopted in

>> many languages "...making it the most used word for a (generally

>> underground) urban transit *system*."

>>

>> The metro marketing enthusiasts espouse "high capacity, high

>> speed, high frequency" trains as attributes that poop all over

>> your regular suburban operation. I've not visited Paris but I

>> have used the London tube. On any one line there, could the

>> trains be described as high capacity? No, they're all quite small

>> carriages marshalled (from memory) as 6 or 8 car sets, depending

>> on the line. High speed? Hardly, they don't attain any great

>> speed but they're probably the quickest way around that big city

>> so using that criteria, yes to high speed. High frequency? On the

>> centre section of each line they run every 2 minutes or so in the

>> peak so yes to frequency although there is some short working

>> involved so the outer ends of each line miss out somewhat.

>>

>> So does any one or two lines anywhere qualify as a Metro? Well

>> nothing is legislated so any individual is free to label anything

>> as he or she sees fit so if you want to brand Sydney's suburban

>> line to Penrith as a Metro, you absolutely can! (Not sure what

>> you'll do to justify all those intercity's, coal trains and the

>> Indian Pacific though...) But if we're talking about what seems

>> to be internationally accepted convention, then it's systems or

>> networks with certain features that are Metro, not individual lines.

>>

>> That being the case, then Perth is the closest we have, although

>> it's more accurate to describe it as a high performance (rapid

>> acceleration, hard braking) suburban system, yes a "metro in

>> waiting"!

>>

>> The automated suburban line in Sydney may morph into a metro some

>> time in the future, if enough lines are added to make it a true

>> system and not what is currently planned which is one long

>> north-west to south-west line and a short east-west one.

>>

>> S

>>

>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 23:37 Daniel Bowen danie...@...> wrote:

>>

>> Thanks Tony.

>>

>> I'm still not sure how Perth meets those criteria (and I

>> appreciate there are shades of grey, and yes you're right,

>> everyone has a different definition!).

>>

>> Perth's rail headways are mostly 15-30 minutes, not exactly

>> high frequency except in peak. Not all trains stop all stops,

>> a number of lines have express services.

>>

>> Is it fast? A quick comparison of the Fremantle line to

>> Melbourne's Sandringham line (which of course is run by an

>> operator with the name "Metro" but is really a suburban rail

>> line) indicates similar length and average speed (37.4 km/h

>> vs 35.8 km/h). Obviously Perth has some faster lines along

>> the freeways.

>>

>> Interesting paper, thanks for that.

>>

>> But I'm afraid I'm not seeing what makes it a "metro".

>>

>>

>> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 at 22:51, TP histor...@...>

>> wrote:

>>

>> Perth and Sydney Metro systems are rapid transit systems.

>> This article explores the concept in some detail.

>>

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit

>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRapid_transit&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2qI4LcS6KYJVnba0ctKJl3uGLF%2FjyiOBylIv6SknsuY%3D&reserved=0

>>

>> There are variations in detail and in names given to the

>> system but the common factors include high capacity,

>> close headways, stopping at all stops and very quick

>> journey times. The conversion of the Perth system to a

>> metro (rapid transit) system is described in this paper

>> by its principal creator.

>>

>> https://cotma.org.au/documents/perth_2018/The%20story%20of%20electric%20trains%20coming%20to%20Perth%20-%20Alan%20Cotton.pdf

>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcotma.org.au%2Fdocuments%2Fperth_2018%2FThe%2520story%2520of%2520electric%2520trains%2520coming%2520to%2520Perth%2520-%2520Alan%2520Cotton.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AprTiByko0q1sXdxN0%2Fq8CdXsRE%2FSrZb%2FHvxblDG5eI%3D&reserved=0

>>

>> Suburban or commuter rail is a different beast, although

>> there are naturally overlapping characteristics. Be

>> warned, 1,001 different railway enthusiasts will come up

>> with 1,001 different arguments to challenge these

>> definitions, which is fair enough because there are

>> inevitably grey edges according to the requirements of

>> different individual cities. However, the basic concepts

>> are distinct.

>>

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail

>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommuter_rail&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lKBKzT22JW8vnZKaPdARLB30df0m33rnalNUaFDR8HY%3D&reserved=0

>>

>> Tony P

>>

>> On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 22:26:47 UTC+10

>> danie...@... wrote:

>>

>> Hey Tony, I'm interested to know how you classify a

>> "metro" vs a "suburban rail system", and thus how

>> Perth has transitioned from one to the other?

>>

>> I still think of Perth's network as suburban rail,

>> along with Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney

>> Trains. Sydney Metro is clearly different.

>>

>>

>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 at 14:21, TP

>> histor...@...> wrote:

>>

>> It is pretty much the same as other metros I've

>> used, but probably best to compare it with other

>> automated metros. It doesn't quite have the

>> acceleration and deceleration of Prague but I

>> think not many would! It's  more comfortable than

>> most, more like Perth which was lucky enough to

>> replace its entire suburban system with a metro

>> system. Sydney and Perth metros are evenly

>> matched for performance given the same parameters

>> (station spacing, number of stops).

>>

>> However, in situations like Sydney where there

>> are two different types of system running side by

>> side doing the same job, the comparison is valid.

>> The metro smokes the suburban system on every

>> criterion: speed and journey time, capacity,

>> frequency, reliability and customer satisfaction.

>> A better opportunity to compare will of course be

>> when that line opens through to Bankstown and the

>> other lines start opening, particularly Metro

>> West. Melbourne will have its turn before too long.

>>

>> Tony P

>>

>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 13:13:25 UTC+10

>> eme...@... wrote:

>>

>> The other point is that metro operations

>> should ideally be compared to other metro

>> systems.

>>

>> How does Sydney compare to Paris,

>> Washington,  Prague,  for example?

>>

>> If it's worse than these, explanations must

>> be sought.  If, otoh, it is better, then

>> let's not be worried.

>>

>> I'm also more concerned that in cities like

>> Melbourne and Sydney, the rail system is

>> trying to do the work that metros do

>> elsewhere. Or, in the case of Adelaide, 

>> heavy rail is trying to do the work of trams

>> on several routes. Using the wrong mode for

>> the job always means inefficiencies that can

>> be used to scrap that mode.

>>

>>

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