Perth currently has a line capacity of about 18,000 people per hour per
direction (4 minute headways) with the present signalling. When the HCS
project is complete and the C series trains on line, it will have a
capacity, if required, of 36,000 pphpd, some 50% more than the capacity of
the Sydney suburban system.
https://infrastructuremagazine.com.au/2022/03/10/high-capacity-signalling-to-maximise-perth-rail-traffic-efficiency/
That's based on six-car trains, which the system is designed for. The
greater potential capacity of Sydney Metro is based on eight-car trains.
Tony P
On Tuesday, 7 June 2022 at 20:29:49 UTC+10 jewiwa wrote:
> There is a distinct divergence of the meaning of the term 'metro' in
> Cairo. It is applied officially to a dedicated high-frequency passenger
> railway that at the time of my two visits, ran north to south (as far as
> Helwan) and has subsequently, I think, had an east-west addition made to
> it. A visitor from Paris would liken it more to an RER service than a
> métro, but it would seem to tick all of Tony's boxes. On the other hand,
> there is a well-entrenched colloquial usage of metro to signify the tram
> lines serving Heliopolis, which presumably arose (out of a company title?)
> to distinguish those lines, which enjoy quite a bit of private right of
> way, from the Cairo city lines (almost entirely abandoned), which did not.
>
> Cheers,
>
> JWW.
> ------------------------------
> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...> on
> behalf of Dudley Horscroft transit...@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, 6 June 2022 9:58 AM
> *To:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...>
> *Subject:* Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Sydney Metro reaffirms safety and
> reliability
>
>
> Paris copied London's Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways,
> which became the Metropolitan and District Railways ( and then Lines)
> before Paris though of it.
>
> Regards
>
> Dudley
> On 6/06/2022 11:55 am, Stuart Keenan wrote:
>
> The term "Metro" seems to have been seized by corporate and marketing
> types in recent years and used in their attempts to sell a train or rail
> line to the wider community as something sleek, futuristic, glossy, etc.
>
> However a Google search turns up Compagnie du chemin de fer métropolitain
> de Paris, the Paris Metropolitan Railway Company Ltd which is shortened to
> Le Metropolitain or Metro (which opened 120yrs ago). Interestingly, the
> same article says the term Metro is an example of a genericized trademark
> and has been adopted in many languages "...making it the most used word for
> a (generally underground) urban transit *system*."
>
> The metro marketing enthusiasts espouse "high capacity, high speed, high
> frequency" trains as attributes that poop all over your regular suburban
> operation. I've not visited Paris but I have used the London tube. On any
> one line there, could the trains be described as high capacity? No, they're
> all quite small carriages marshalled (from memory) as 6 or 8 car sets,
> depending on the line. High speed? Hardly, they don't attain any great
> speed but they're probably the quickest way around that big city so using
> that criteria, yes to high speed. High frequency? On the centre section of
> each line they run every 2 minutes or so in the peak so yes to frequency
> although there is some short working involved so the outer ends of each
> line miss out somewhat.
>
> So does any one or two lines anywhere qualify as a Metro? Well nothing is
> legislated so any individual is free to label anything as he or she sees
> fit so if you want to brand Sydney's suburban line to Penrith as a Metro,
> you absolutely can! (Not sure what you'll do to justify all those
> intercity's, coal trains and the Indian Pacific though...) But if we're
> talking about what seems to be internationally accepted convention, then
> it's systems or networks with certain features that are Metro, not
> individual lines.
>
> That being the case, then Perth is the closest we have, although it's more
> accurate to describe it as a high performance (rapid acceleration, hard
> braking) suburban system, yes a "metro in waiting"!
>
> The automated suburban line in Sydney may morph into a metro some time in
> the future, if enough lines are added to make it a true system and not what
> is currently planned which is one long north-west to south-west line and a
> short east-west one.
>
> S
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022, 23:37 Daniel Bowen danie...@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Tony.
>
> I'm still not sure how Perth meets those criteria (and I appreciate there
> are shades of grey, and yes you're right, everyone has a different
> definition!).
>
> Perth's rail headways are mostly 15-30 minutes, not exactly high frequency
> except in peak. Not all trains stop all stops, a number of lines have
> express services.
>
> Is it fast? A quick comparison of the Fremantle line to Melbourne's
> Sandringham line (which of course is run by an operator with the name
> "Metro" but is really a suburban rail line) indicates similar length and
> average speed (37.4 km/h vs 35.8 km/h). Obviously Perth has some faster
> lines along the freeways.
>
> Interesting paper, thanks for that.
>
> But I'm afraid I'm not seeing what makes it a "metro".
>
>
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 at 22:51, TP histor...@...> wrote:
>
> Perth and Sydney Metro systems are rapid transit systems. This article
> explores the concept in some detail.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRapid_transit&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2qI4LcS6KYJVnba0ctKJl3uGLF%2FjyiOBylIv6SknsuY%3D&reserved=0
>
> There are variations in detail and in names given to the system but the
> common factors include high capacity, close headways, stopping at all stops
> and very quick journey times. The conversion of the Perth system to a metro
> (rapid transit) system is described in this paper by its principal creator.
>
>
> https://cotma.org.au/documents/perth_2018/The%20story%20of%20electric%20trains%20coming%20to%20Perth%20-%20Alan%20Cotton.pdf
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcotma.org.au%2Fdocuments%2Fperth_2018%2FThe%2520story%2520of%2520electric%2520trains%2520coming%2520to%2520Perth%2520-%2520Alan%2520Cotton.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AprTiByko0q1sXdxN0%2Fq8CdXsRE%2FSrZb%2FHvxblDG5eI%3D&reserved=0
>
> Suburban or commuter rail is a different beast, although there are
> naturally overlapping characteristics. Be warned, 1,001 different railway
> enthusiasts will come up with 1,001 different arguments to challenge these
> definitions, which is fair enough because there are inevitably grey edges
> according to the requirements of different individual cities. However, the
> basic concepts are distinct.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCommuter_rail&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lKBKzT22JW8vnZKaPdARLB30df0m33rnalNUaFDR8HY%3D&reserved=0
>
> Tony P
>
> On Sunday, 5 June 2022 at 22:26:47 UTC+10danie...@... wrote:
>
> Hey Tony, I'm interested to know how you classify a "metro" vs a "suburban
> rail system", and thus how Perth has transitioned from one to the other?
>
> I still think of Perth's network as suburban rail, along with Melbourne,
> Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney Trains. Sydney Metro is clearly different.
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 at 14:21, TP histor...@...> wrote:
>
> It is pretty much the same as other metros I've used, but probably best to
> compare it with other automated metros. It doesn't quite have the
> acceleration and deceleration of Prague but I think not many would! It's
> more comfortable than most, more like Perth which was lucky enough to
> replace its entire suburban system with a metro system. Sydney and Perth
> metros are evenly matched for performance given the same parameters
> (station spacing, number of stops).
>
> However, in situations like Sydney where there are two different types of
> system running side by side doing the same job, the comparison is valid.
> The metro smokes the suburban system on every criterion: speed and journey
> time, capacity, frequency, reliability and customer satisfaction. A better
> opportunity to compare will of course be when that line opens through to
> Bankstown and the other lines start opening, particularly Metro West.
> Melbourne will have its turn before too long.
>
> Tony P
>
> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 13:13:25 UTC+10eme...@... wrote:
>
> The other point is that metro operations should ideally be compared to
> other metro systems.
>
> How does Sydney compare to Paris, Washington, Prague, for example?
>
> If it's worse than these, explanations must be sought. If, otoh, it is
> better, then let's not be worried.
>
> I'm also more concerned that in cities like Melbourne and Sydney, the
> rail system is trying to do the work that metros do elsewhere. Or, in the
> case of Adelaide, heavy rail is trying to do the work of trams on several
> routes. Using the wrong mode for the job always means inefficiencies that
> can be used to scrap that mode.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email totramsdownunde...@....
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/a4c1c567-f383-4d95-9f46-d186247f537cn%40googlegroups.com
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2Fa4c1c567-f383-4d95-9f46-d186247f537cn%2540googlegroups.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hk%2BAOAIo4LZNpaOokYTTJU4b6dpyEwZlz7WOp2SMR3o%3D&reserved=0
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email totramsdownunde...@....
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAOJgfA4sWGe6pdLRe2np7wCAyb8hT5BxL-4JVj57YgSskwsosA%40mail.gmail.com
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2FCAOJgfA4sWGe6pdLRe2np7wCAyb8hT5BxL-4JVj57YgSskwsosA%2540mail.gmail.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IR8zAUDKfiLY99eMKsDulMM8%2BqWEsmYHI6wn%2B7ug2Cc%3D&reserved=0
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email totramsdownunde...@....
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAHXJhpCoac-kpqW2680PVPHXTvf9L2nMj26heJeHsUA-1NMQWQ%40mail.gmail.com
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2FCAHXJhpCoac-kpqW2680PVPHXTvf9L2nMj26heJeHsUA-1NMQWQ%2540mail.gmail.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Hc0kkiYW9A%2FTNC%2Fve8DOkDlgVT%2FixpWNakbjeK%2BVfI0%3D&reserved=0
> .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email totramsdownunde...@....
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/35ffc0f0-546c-7003-57ae-9022dd092922%40ozemail.com.au
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2F35ffc0f0-546c-7003-57ae-9022dd092922%2540ozemail.com.au%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cded049b518a647a786a908da47a32c11%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637901063480942954%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rMp3GEVwZ%2BpyPRNRspa3kUUAXBxoT1olEHbHPzuPS9g%3D&reserved=0
> .
>