Re: Track issues in Melbourne
  Dudley Horscroft

Must be an International City.  "T World " teas and coffees, next to Vietnamese coffee also advertising "Home made cake Bahn Mi and Hot Food, next to "SkipPie" for"Australske Masove Kapse" and then the "Happy Salon" - English and French!

I remember the BKV panels in Budapest having plain concrete surfaces, no pretty imitation brickwork.  But very noticeable joints.

Perhaps the panels should rest on a levelled layer of sand which has been sprinkled with some binder on which the panels can be laid so as to produce a perfectly even and rigid surface suitable for heavy vehicles.

Regards

Dudley

On 21/05/2022 6:46 pm, TP wrote:
> Skippie is still operating after ten years?

>

> http://skippie.cz/index.htm

>

> I see that Miroslav now has a dining pod out on the street, about a pie's width from passing trams. You can't get much closer than that:

>

> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@49.7466927,13.3743197,3a,75y,242.73h,86.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMdqbu1faDouhaNHVazWaXA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DMdqbu1faDouhaNHVazWaXA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D105.35062%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

>

> The BKV panels seem to have a stone paving imprint on them? I don't recall noticing that before, usually just smooth concrete. Specially done for the historic precinct I guess?

>

> I can see when I visit Fremantle's west end why it reminds me of Plzen.

>

> The street, Prešovská, is a popular location for tram photography. Here is a new Skoda 40T tram passing the pie shop heading east on line 1:

>

> https://i1.wp.com/www.cysnews-new.cz/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/tram-pl.jpg

>

> The 40T is a 30 metre tram of the same configuration as the Melbourne E class. 22 are being purchased for PMDP Plzen. Plzen (population 170,000) is disposing of its smaller trams in favour of 30 metre trams to meet demand - at the same time as some other city (population 5 million) is downsizing to 24 metre trams (to meet demand?). Funny old world, the world of trams.

>

> Tony P

>

> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 12:12:19 UTC+10eme...@... wrote:

>

> The BKV panels are a good idea,  wrongly used.  They are extremely

> cheap and quick to install. Excellent for temporary track

> relocations such as round the Anzac Station under construction.

> Similarly,  for very light traffic where other methods would make

> trams uneconomic. However,  when their use was extended to busy

> lines, a life of ten years seemed to be the maximum...but cheap.

> Then, of course, it was cheaper to just let them get worse and

> worse by slowing the service down. Various operators in Czech

> Republic are persevering with them in low usage lines, but with

> sturdier bases.

>

> I'm interested to see how these are standing up. One such section

> is outside the Skippy Australian Pie Shop in Plzeň. So, on my next

> visit I shall observe while munching a pie.

>

> Mark Skinner

>

> On Sat, 21 May 2022, 9:11 am Matthew Geier,

> mat...@...> wrote:

>

> If we are talking asphalt roads , probably won't matter how

> well you

> pack that thin layer of fill, it will tend to 'flow' under

> load. The

> tram rails probably act to constrain where the road vehicle's

> wheels go

> - they have issues like this on the Sydney Harbour Bridge on

> the Cahill

> lanes (ex railway/tramway) as they are quite narrow and have a

> high

> amount of bus traffic. With the buses constrained to run in

> the 'same'

> path due to the narrow lanes the asphalt ruts quite rapidly.

>

> I've also seen this elsewhere where the lanes are narrow and

> constrained

> - and particularly on those guided rubber tired tram things.

> They rather

> rapidly rut their guideway unless it's concrete, and the first

> Translohr

> has noticeable wear on its concrete sections!. I think the Paris

> Translohr lines are all concrete on the running surface.

>

> Those pre-fab track panels they used in Eastern Europe have

> proven to be

> problematic over time - unless the bed those panels are placed

> on is

> very well compacted (and often wasn't) the panels tend to rock

> with the

> road traffic and eventually break the rails.

>

>

> On 20/5/22 21:47, Dudley Horscroft wrote:

> > Perhaps it might be better in these high traffic areas to

> ensure that

> > the concrete to top of sleeper height is completely level,

> then insert

> > between the rails long concrete panels linked by some sort

> of mastic -

> > tar or rubber?  Similar to the panels used in Budapest but

> without the

> > fixings for the rails, or the panels used in somewhere in

> the Czech

> > republic - Tony knows where and can probably find the

> advertising

> > material on these.

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Dudley

> >

> > On 20/05/2022 9:36 pm, David Batho wrote:

> >> Thank you, all, for some recondite observations.

> >>

> >> David

> >>

> >>

> >>> On 11 May 2022, at 11:14 am, Mal Rowe mal....@...>

> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> On 08/05/2022 13:10, Mal Rowe wrote:

> >>>> The strength and finished surface are starting to show

> some problems.

> >>>>

> >>> As promised, I went out to get some pics of some problems

> with some

> >>> of Melbourne's tramways renewed using the current technique.

> >>>

> >>> The technique involves concrete to sleeper height, then

> crushed

> >>> rock/concrete fill to just below rail height and topping

> off with

> >>> bitumen.

> >>>

> >>> It mostly works well, but there are at least a couple of

> places

> >>> where problems with the road surface have emerged.

> >>>

> >>> The two attached pics show Bridge Rd Richmond where there

> is very

> >>> heavy road traffic.  The use of "Vienna stops" in this

> location

> >>> concentrates the motor traffic on the tramway section of

> the road.

> >>> Most motorists avoid going up and over the kerbside lane.

> It looks

> >>> like the crushed rock has not been stable enough and the

> bitumen

> >>> surface is breaking up. The tramway is fine - just the

> road surface

> >>> is failing.

> >>>

> >>> The other location I have noticed problems is in Dawson St

> >>> Brunswick.  The section of roadway outside the tram rails

> is quite

> >>> uneven - driving along it in a car one notices 'long period

> >>> corrugations' that give a bumpy ride.

> >>>

> >>> Getting the crushed fill to pack down is tricky - the

> small roller

> >>> that is used (see: https://tdu.to/i/80550 ) is probably

> not able to

> >>> do the job properly.

> >>>

> >>> Mal Rowe - grateful to Warren Doubleday for the 'heads up'

> on Bridge

> >>> Rd.

> >>>

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> >>> <2096_BridgeRd_10May2022.JPG><Damage-BridgeRd_10May2022.JPG>

> >

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