Sorry, Tony, I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. In Wikipaedia under 15T there is a lengthy table of the 15 T and other varieties generically labelled "For City", such as the 26T. These appear to be derivatives of the 14T, which is what I meant.
The progression seems to be 14T, 26T and 28T, 30T, 29T. These are labelled "ForCity Plus" The "ForCity Smart" are the design originally for Helsinki, and not given a number but also labelled as "Artic". The 35T is based on the 28T. All rather confusing, but perhaps not as bad as the Bombardier naming method, where it seems that the same product is given different names, and different products have the same name. Or perhaps I have just got rather confused?
Regards
Dudley Horscroft
On 21/07/2021 12:15 am, TP wrote:
> The Skoda 15T isn't a derivative of the 14T, it's a completely different design. The 14T belongs to the same family of fixed-truck trams as the Citadis etc (though runs better than the Citadis). The 15T is a patent design of its own and has no direct derivatives as no-one is using Jacobs bogies nowadays and Skoda has patented the best Jacobs bogie design for a low-floor tram. So the third stream of design platform in current low-floor trams - for operators wanting proper swivelling bogie trams - is that represented by the E class. This has the disadvantage of the bogies being within the cabins, hence constraining internal layout and door configuration options, but it's quite a popular design nowadays as trams are conceived more as standee vehicles and not so much attention is given to the niceties of seating. Within this design group, however, there are sometimes different bogie layouts for individual clients, including a mixture of fixed and swivelling bogies.
>
> So that's the state of the art at present with no major technology shifts (other than the wireless or autonomous tram) on the horizon. That early era of experimentation with low-floor engineering, of which the Cobra and Eurotram were examples, is over.
>
> Tony P
>
> On Tuesday, 20 July 2021 at 22:09:56 UTC+10transit...@... wrote:
>
> Mention of the Zurich Cobra Trams led me to browsing the Eurotram.
> and thence the Bombardier family of trams, with the woeful story
> of Bombardier trams in Ontario. This again led to the Skoda 15T
> and its derivatives - or perhaps I should say the derivatives of
> the 14T with their problems ironed out.
>
> This led me to wonder, has there been any real advance in tram
> design (other than technology) since the Eurotram and the Skoda
> 15T. How does the Melbourne E class stack up against these?
>
> Regards
>
> Dudley Horscroft
>
> On 20/07/2021 9:02 pm, TP wrote:
>> Do you think so David? Like most older trams, I would describe
>> the Ringhoffers most kindly as "quaint". My favourites are the
>> American PCC and their derivative, the Tatra T3, and the Sydney
>> R/R1, all first-rate examples of early modernity with high
>> aesthetic quality. However, it's important to preserve
>> representative examples of various types of vehicle throughout
>> history and I admire any example of a fine restoration, whatever
>> the vehicle. The low-floor era has brought more consistent
>> aesthetics, though it's all reached a level of sameness where
>> only the nose cone distinguishes them and there are certainly
>> some ugly doozies among those. The Adtranz Cobra is my favourite
>> example of good aesthetics in a low-floor tram. The fact that
>> they didn't work so well is another subject, something that can't
>> be said of the PCCs, the Tatra T3 and the R/R1!
>>
>> Tony P
>> On Tuesday, 20 July 2021 at 15:40:40 UTC+10dba...@...
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Tony. Much nicer looking than the more modern ones I
>> saw in Prague.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>> On 20 Jul 2021, at 2:28 pm, TP histor...@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Any excuse for a good tram parade. Leading the parade is no.
>>> 18 from Pilsen, the oldest operating electric tram in
>>> Central Europe.
>>>
>>> https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/parade-of-historical-trams-honors-130-years-on-prague-rails
>>> https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/parade-of-historical-trams-honors-130-years-on-prague-rails
>>>
>>> A fine summer's day for it:
>>>
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217713156_4143216382434848_5688233704860129311_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=OWQJ0WiABsIAX_-jGHj&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=7fd2670dda4621fe0f0b9b08ab0174ff&oe=60FA7930
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217713156_4143216382434848_5688233704860129311_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=OWQJ0WiABsIAX_-jGHj&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=7fd2670dda4621fe0f0b9b08ab0174ff&oe=60FA7930
>>>
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/218851538_4143216159101537_4069468143783729548_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=nGyYLDEAJWIAX_pcPvH&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=0f3d9330e5a0dcf801bc1bfe8fc844e1&oe=60FC0207
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/218851538_4143216159101537_4069468143783729548_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=nGyYLDEAJWIAX_pcPvH&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=0f3d9330e5a0dcf801bc1bfe8fc844e1&oe=60FC0207
>>>
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217400009_4143216069101546_4036194390772267216_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5zZFviFZ-RQAX-8do0O&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=4fa1173d5ed32a537814d5e4d0ed640a&oe=60FC0FCA
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217400009_4143216069101546_4036194390772267216_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5zZFviFZ-RQAX-8do0O&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=4fa1173d5ed32a537814d5e4d0ed640a&oe=60FC0FCA
>>>
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217663901_4143216059101547_3602521447494159218_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=WOzZ4QRrXWEAX-ZuuTs&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=89d5a5b483a2aa49eb1b47a067744afe&oe=60FBDC4F
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/217663901_4143216059101547_3602521447494159218_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=WOzZ4QRrXWEAX-ZuuTs&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=89d5a5b483a2aa49eb1b47a067744afe&oe=60FBDC4F
>>>
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/218228641_4143215932434893_2779728746671827262_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=viMSal5O4Y4AX9Qk5m0&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=77e4b0ccd67c6611889a882d30ced19b&oe=60FB759E
>>> https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/218228641_4143215932434893_2779728746671827262_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_rgb565=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=viMSal5O4Y4AX9Qk5m0&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=77e4b0ccd67c6611889a882d30ced19b&oe=60FB759E
>>>
>>> The photos at the multi-platform loop are at Prague's
>>> equivalent of the Randwick Racecourse station, at Strahov
>>> Stadium.
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
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