Re: Re: Trackless trams for Melbourne

The excellent German market summary that David posted recently shows how
many (that is, how few) front-line tram manufacturers are left to choose
from. There's Alstom(/Bombardier), CAF, Skoda, Siemens and Stadler. For
those other three, which are actually the more versatile manufacturers that
would be more able to produce the tram variant you want, it's questionable
whether any of those would want to set up a joint manufacturing venture in
Australia for only one order and the risk of not getting any more orders.
I'd say the reason for the shortlist is that those two selected are
prepared to set up an assembly joint venture of some sort in Australia. Of
course, until a year ago, there was CRRC which would have happily been
hauled onto this bandwagon, but nowadays - no.

Tony P

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 08:33:13 UTC+10gregsut...@... wrote:

> A question, how many manufacturers didn't make the short list and who were

> they?


> Greg



> On 3/05/2021 11:25 pm, TP wrote:


> Alstom and CAF don't yet make a BB cab module on this platform. Hardly

> anybody does because there is so little demand for trams under 30 metres.

> BB cabs like the one I illustrated above for Ostrava are produced by some

> German and Czech manufacturers for bespoke orders for smaller cities (like

> Ostrava) where they want a tram shorter than 30 metres. This type of

> configuration has generally replaced the Jacobs bogie, I don't understand

> why. That's probably the context in which you saw a concept design. Bigger

> cities are now increasingly heading north of 30 metre lengths as demand

> rises - 30 metres is the new minimum, so there's a bit of design fudging to

> get a shorter length.


> These various module combinations with their odd distribution of bogies

> also play havoc with both positioning and number of doors. It's like some

> great dumbing down of basic principles learned over decades earlier.

> Speaking of Jacobs bogies, the Skoda 15T is ideal for this sort of

> expansion, having the right module dimensions to evenly expand from 20

> something metres to 60 or whatever - upholding the even two-door-per-module

> distribution going no matter the length. The SIemens Avenio, although

> having the bogie in the middle of saloon, likewise enables two

> evenly-spaced doors per module. These two trams are the apex of swivelling

> bogie designs (though the swivel on the Siemens is very limited) and would

> be excellent for Melbourne, also for their flexible expandable lengths.

> However, I think why Alston and CAF are shortlisted is that they're willing

> to locally assemble, whereas Skoda and Siemens are probably not.


> Tony P

> On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 20:41:04 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:



>> On 3/5/21 4:49 pm, TP wrote:

>> > That would be a very untidy extension with a mixture of lengths, some

>> > requiring two bogies, and random door placements.



>> I've seen what was probably a concept design, and i can't remember

>> where, a tram with a 2 rotating bogie end section and then a number of

>> single bogie modules 'hanging' off it. It doesn't have to stop at just

>> a single articulation and 3 bogies.


>> Normally a ~30m version would have 2 single bogie end sections hanging

>> off a 2 bogie centre section, but it doesn't have to be a B+BB+B


>> It could be a BB+B+B, so you could stick a 10m long middle into a single

>> articulated 20m version to lengthen it.



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