Stuart, I just take targetted dips into social (local community pages) and
local media to read what people think about things. My niece, who lives
around Quakers Hill, is one of the many who have abandoned the Richmond
line for the metro. She likes the trains and the faster trip. It's a lot of
anecdotal stuff but it adds up to a picture that there are certainly no
tears shed over not having double deck trains. Any adverse reaction seems
to be confined to rail buffs - of whom you can count me out! The first and
last great double deck train in my opinion was the V set. Comeng simply had
the knack and nobody since has.
Anyway, they're two completely independent systems (though working together
in providing a total network for Sydney) and how one develops has no
bearing on the other. As for converting existing lines, that's only 25 km
out of 800 km or so and those particular conversions take some vital
pressure off the suburban system to enable it to function better. The metro
is a clean sheet system. The suburban system will get its own improvements
after the Bankstown conversion, but the priority now is to build the metro
lines so that more of Sydney is serviced by rail and thus inroads can be
made into road traffic congestion.
As I often say, if you want to see an Australian rapid transit (metro)
system in a completed state, go and ride the Perth system and note the
journey times in relation to the distance and number of stops. It's by far
the best type of system for spread-out Australian cities, but, apart from
Sydney, all the east coast cities are established and have little
opportunity to introduce this type of system - though watch developments in
Melbourne.
Tony P
On Friday, 15 January 2021 at 22:41:53 UTC+11stuart....@... wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> No sorry, Tony P, while I have a FB account to keep in touch with friends,
> I don't follow any social media. Given a choice between that and having my
> arm cut off with a chainsaw I'll choose the latter, it's less painful :)
>
> No people aren't "stupid" but unless they have a particular interest in
> the railways or a string of bad experiences, then most people will be
> satisfied with the service provided by rail operators most of the time. The
> few genuine, well thought-out grievances posed can be dismissed by the
> operator along the lines of "We appreciate your feedback and will look into
> it but 85% of respondents are satisfied with our service."
>
> Having looked at the Sydney Metro website recently, I realise my gripe
> with it (apart from converting existing lines rather than building new
> ones) is that the main selling points of the metro, what they call Project
> Features, could be realised with the existing suburban system. It's not
> like the Metro is being built because they are the only trains up to the
> task and the suburban trains can't do it, simply that they don't. Given
> adequate funding, equipment and other resources, the suburban system could
> perform to metro standards, but the powers that be have decreed otherwise.
>
> Yes the "entanglement" of the suburban system needs addressing (the
> Bankstown line isn't even the worst offender) although much of that is
> clerical in nature rather than the physical plant. Why, for example, so
> many local trains between Redfern and Strathfield have to run to Parramatta
> is bizarre when Homebush was upgraded as part of the Rail Clearways project
> as a turnback location to take Bankstown via Lidcombe trains out of the
> Homebush to Lidcombe section to free that track up for more South via
> Granville and Western trains. These Parramatta locals cause conflicting
> movements at Homebush, Lidcombe and Granville, not to mention relegating
> platforms 3 and 4 at Parramatta to terminal roads with all Western trains
> having to use platforms 1 and 2.
>
> Other clerical (timetabling) features are the flat junctions at Homebush
> and Illawarra Junction. Western trains routed via the main lines from
> Granville have to cross to the suburban lines at one of the above locations
> to access the suburban platforms at Central and the North Shore line.
> Likewise, South trains on the suburban lines from Granville have to cross
> to the Local lines to access the City Circle. These flat junctions are the
> cause of conflicting movements and (AFAIK) are still the standard 25km/h
> turnouts so slow to negotiate. In the absence of high speed crossovers,
> what to do? To eliminate the bottlenecks, they could send trains on the
> main lines to Sydney Terminal to terminate and South trains could go up the
> North Shore line. Probably some political considerations there!
>
> Build the metro by all means, the more trains the merrier! But does Sydney
> Trains need the metro to improve its own performance?
>
> No.
>
> SK
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:44 PM TP histor...@...> wrote:
>
>> Yes Geoff, it's not a level playing field and I tried to cover that by
>> saying that the suburban system has significant potential for improvement.
>> Whether it will ever overcome the constraints caused by line entanglement
>> I'm not so sure, but performance can get better with the will to do so. I
>> sometimes ride between Waterfall and Central and, doing calcs on these
>> things as I do, I note that the metro over the same distance and the same
>> number of stops would do the trip 10 minutes faster. That really means
>> something when you've already spent 90 minutes driving all the way from
>> Nowra and still have to catch the tram to Randwick (where another 5 minutes
>> or so chopped of would be great)! I'm all in favour of such progress.
>>
>> Geoffrey, all of the few former peak services with limited stopping
>> patterns in Perth have been dropped and all trains are all-stops with the
>> exception of the shared Armadale/Thornlie line where there are semi-express
>> services. The Fremantle line has very much in common with the Bankstown
>> line in its length, the number of stops and their close spacing. The
>> journey time on the Fremantle line is almost identical to what will be the
>> Sydney metro's journey time on the Bankstown line. Indeed you can get a
>> free preview of the trip on the Bankstown metro by taking a ride to
>> Fremantle. The thing that strikes you immediately is the acceleration out
>> of stops and the fast deceleration into stops. It reminds me of riding on a
>> Prague tram except that the maximum speed is considerably greater!
>>
>> Tony P
>> .
>> On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 17:56:48 UTC+11gnhan...@...
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tony just out of interest Tony why are you describing the Perth Network
>>> as Australia's other rapid transit system? Doesn't the Fremantle line have
>>> a variety a stopping patterns?
>>>
>>> Regards Geoffrey
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...> on
>>> behalf of TP histor...@...>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 January 2021 6:20 AM
>>> *To:* TramsDownUnder tramsdo...@...>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Impact of Sydney Metro project will
>>> ‘shock everyone’, NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance says | Gold Coast
>>> Bulletin
>>>
>>> If you've followed the local commuters' social media since the metro
>>> opened Stuart, you'll see that they have plenty of exposure to the suburban
>>> system because, like everybody else, they've used it in various ways over
>>> the years. Indeed a lot of them came across to the metro from the nearby
>>> semi-express Richmond line (same number of stops over same distance and 12
>>> minutes slower to Central than the metro) and most of them have to use the
>>> north shore or northern lines to get into the city at present. The funniest
>>> interludes in these discussions have been when some double deck zealot
>>> joins in and tries to win them over or get them to support "save the
>>> Bankstown line". They're universally howled down.
>>>
>>> People aren't stupid, most of them can work out when they get a faster
>>> trip. As for the much-hyped issue of seats, this topic has never, ever
>>> arisen in discussions. As Brian has pointed out in the past, many people
>>> even choose to stand when there are seats available. As for stopping at
>>> every station - the trains can do this and still finish the trip quicker
>>> than the suburban system's semi-express trips so why not? Plus many people
>>> on the NW line get off at intermediate centres along the line at Norwest,
>>> both Castle Hills, Epping and North Ryde, so they wouldn;t appreciate
>>> skipping stops.
>>>
>>> I think satisfaction surveys are more reliable than political polls.
>>>
>>> Alex, I've never made the generalisation that metro rail is faster (in
>>> commercial speed) than suburban rail, some systems aren't, but in this
>>> particular case of Sydney it is. Coincidentally too, the Sydney metro
>>> journey times are very similar to those of the Perth metro (taking account
>>> of station spacings etc), Australia's other rapid transit system. So there
>>> is a type commonality. A modern signalling system will certainly improve
>>> the performance of the Sydney suburban system, but the rolling stock is too
>>> cumbersome and there's a lot of line entanglement (which removing the
>>> Bankstown line and the Epping-Chatswood line from the system helps to ease.
>>> The performance of the suburban system will improve in the longer term.
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 15:17:06 UTC+11stuart....@...
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dissenters will always be a very tiny bubble. It's only us Roundheads on
>>> TDU who will argue this until we run out of air, everyone else on the train
>>> has lives to lead and things to do, the train barely registers on their
>>> personal radar.
>>>
>>> Riders on the NWRL love it because it is a train; it happens to be a
>>> metro but they would love anything that runs on rails. They've been starved
>>> of good rail transport for decades and now they have something so of course
>>> they love it (they'd probably love it more if they could get a decent seat
>>> and didn't have to stop at every hole between Tallawong and the city but
>>> that's merely my opinion :)
>>>
>>> Satisfaction surveys are about as reliable as political polls. Remember
>>> that one that said the next PM would be Bill Shorten???
>>>
>>> SK
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 14:59 TP histor...@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not going to try run a rational argument against one that distorts
>>> facts. In the end, it's the regular commuters who will vote on it and the
>>> experience and feedback in the NW suggests that they love it very much and
>>> that's from people who experience both systems, so have an actual regular
>>> daily-experience basis for comparison, not "feelings" based on infrequent
>>> out-of-peak visits. Let's just wait until the rest of the line opens in a
>>> couple of years or so and we'll find out that the dissenters turn out to be
>>> in fact a tiny bubble.
>>>
>>> The last TfNSW customer satisfaction survey results were 98% overall
>>> satisfaction with ferry services, 96% for metro, 91% for buses and 90% each
>>> for light rail and suburban rail. One of the highest points of satisfaction
>>> with the metro service (99%) was journey time for the distance travelled.
>>> One of the lowest scores on the suburban system (90%) was journey time for
>>> the distance travelled - and that would be semi-express travel for longer
>>> distances. The suburban system also scored only 88% on frequency of service
>>> (cf. metro 95%) and 91% on personal space (cf. metro 95%). But let's not
>>> let the facts stand in the way of a good story.
>>>
>>> I guess the next angle of attack then has to be on unthinking, ignorant
>>> commuters who "don't understand" how "bad" they have it on the metro.
>>>
>>> Out of interest, overall customer satisfaction with suburban trains has
>>> been pretty level since 2016, bus satisfaction has been rising slowly,
>>> ferry and metro satisfaction have been consistently high (the latter over
>>> two years) and light rail satisfaction has been slowly declining, poor
>>> frequency and overcrowding being the main areas of dissatisfaction (that
>>> would be mainly IWLR). Journey time is not a strong point either and that
>>> was mostly before the advent of CSELR set new low standards.
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 12:49:47 UTC+11 Richard Youl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Whoopee-Doo-Deeee! 🎉🎊
>>>
>>> 95 years of advances in electric railway technology will produce trains
>>> 4 minutes faster than what the weak old single deck trains could manage in
>>> 1978, call it a two minute saving when you subtract the two less stations
>>> to be served.
>>>
>>> Sure, there will be more trains. But that’s a hollow victory for
>>> commuters, arguably those were the tightest daily schedules, who will lose
>>> their express trains, not to mention anyone travelling between stations on
>>> opposite sides of Bankstown who will now have to change trains at that
>>> station to continue their journeys. I’m sure that regular commuters know
>>> what time their expresses run and get themselves to the station in time.
>>>
>>> With only longitudinal seats, like it or not but passages will be
>>> subject to the lateral forces of acceleration and braking on top of the
>>> delight or potentially having somebody’s bottom inches from your nose!
>>>
>>> I could not really find out how much the Bankstown conversion cost will
>>> be although one estimate of $7 billion seemed a bit high, but it certainly
>>> will not be cheap.
>>>
>>> Small carriages means more wheels, motors, doors and other equipment to
>>> maintain, not to mention all the station doors. These are ongoing costs
>>> which must be greater than for the existing double deck fleet because of
>>> the numbers involved and extra equipment needed.
>>>
>>> Sure, extend the Metro but build it into some area currently with only
>>> road public transport serving the needs of the populace but leave Bankstown
>>> alone, although now it is too late for that.
>>>
>>> It seems like an enormous expense just to get rid of some train drivers
>>> and guards.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12 Jan 2021, at 1:08 pm, TP histor...@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a funny world nowadays. In my day, a faster, more frequent commuter
>>> service was considered to be progress; nowadays, to some (but I suspect not
>>> the vast majority) it's apparently not. The metro will cover
>>> Bankstown-Central in 28 minutes, stopping at every one of eleven
>>> intermediate stations. I imagine the initial timetable will be every 4
>>> minutes in peaks and 10 minutes off-peak, with six-car trains with a
>>> capacity of 1,100 including seats for 378. The system has a design capacity
>>> for eight-car trains (1,500 passengers including 504 seats) every two
>>> minutes. So, just in terms of seats (which represent only about 1/3 of
>>> total capacity), the service will initially deliver 5,670 seats per hour
>>> (15 trains) in peaks and 2,268 seats (6 trains) per hour off-peak (bearing
>>> in mind off-peak trains are usually far from full), with a design maximum
>>> capacity of 15,120 seats per hour.
>>>
>>> Let's look at the current service and I'll choose the 0730 to 0830 time
>>> slot to assess peak figures and after 0900 to assess off-peak. The
>>> eight-car trains have about 900 seats.
>>>
>>> Now, the first thing you have to do is choose where you want to live
>>> very carefully, because not every train serves every station. If you want
>>> the best possible service, you need to live at Bankstown, Sydenham or
>>> Redfern. These suburbs get 9 trains an hour in peak and 6 off-peak, which
>>> is 8,100 and 5,400 seats per hour respectively. Your journey takes between
>>> 26 minutes (on trains that only stop at four stops) and 35 minutes for
>>> trains that stop at all stops. The catch with the fastest trains is that
>>> you have to wait a bit for them - about 10 minutes in peak and 30 minutes
>>> off peak, which sort of cancels the journey time gain. In addition, if you
>>> want to get off at a station along the line that is bypassed by the
>>> semi-expresses, all calculations go out the window. It's Central or bust.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if you live at Wiley Park, Canterbury or Hurlstone
>>> Park, you're waiting about 15 minutes for a train and then the trip takes
>>> 35 minutes - about 3,600 seats per hour. Between those two extremes there's
>>> a random mixture of stations that the faster trains stop at, almost like
>>> somebody blindfolded randomly tossed darts at a map of the SW suburbs, but
>>> Lakemba, Campsie and Marrickville are the most favoured. Journey times and
>>> seats are obviously in a range between the two extremes.
>>>
>>> So the outcome is that the discrepancy in seating per hour is not
>>> anywhere as extreme as made out by metro opponents and is more than
>>> compensated by a faster journey, at greater frequency and with the
>>> convenience of stopping at all stations. I think you'll find, as in the
>>> NSW, most people will be more than happy on the basis of these extra
>>> benefits.
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 12 January 2021 at 12:13:30 UTC+11gnhan...@...
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be happy if I was a regular Bankstown line user.
>>>
>>> Regards Geoffrey
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...> on
>>> behalf of TP histor...@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 January 2021 10:33 AM
>>> *To:* TramsDownUnder tramsdo...@...>
>>> *Subject:* [TramsDownUnder] Re: Impact of Sydney Metro project will
>>> ‘shock everyone’, NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance says | Gold Coast
>>> Bulletin
>>>
>>> Two to be exact: faster journey and more trains per hour.
>>>
>>> Tony P
>>>
>>> On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 17:24:56 UTC+11 Richard Youl wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m sure the Bankstown train travellers will be shocked in more ways
>>> than one!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/impact-of-sydney-metro-project-will-shock-everyone-minister-says/news-story/5ea44be3c908ab098e3a5a955e520bc3
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
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>