Re: Re: Impact of Sydney Metro project will ‘shock everyone’, NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance says | Gold Coast Bulletin

If you've followed the local commuters' social media since the metro opened
Stuart, you'll see that they have plenty of exposure to the suburban
system because, like everybody else, they've used it in various ways over
the years. Indeed a lot of them came across to the metro from the nearby
semi-express Richmond line (same number of stops over same distance and 12
minutes slower to Central than the metro) and most of them have to use the
north shore or northern lines to get into the city at present. The funniest
interludes in these discussions have been when some double deck zealot
joins in and tries to win them over or get them to support "save the
Bankstown line". They're universally howled down.

People aren't stupid, most of them can work out when they get a faster
trip. As for the much-hyped issue of seats, this topic has never, ever
arisen in discussions. As Brian has pointed out in the past, many people
even choose to stand when there are seats available. As for stopping at
every station - the trains can do this and still finish the trip quicker
than the suburban system's semi-express trips so why not? Plus many people
on the NW line get off at intermediate centres along the line at Norwest,
both Castle Hills, Epping and North Ryde, so they wouldn;t appreciate
skipping stops.

I think satisfaction surveys are more reliable than political polls.

Alex, I've never made the generalisation that metro rail is faster (in
commercial speed) than suburban rail, some systems aren't, but in this
particular case of Sydney it is. Coincidentally too, the Sydney metro
journey times are very similar to those of the Perth metro (taking account
of station spacings etc), Australia's other rapid transit system. So there
is a type commonality. A modern signalling system will certainly improve
the performance of the Sydney suburban system, but the rolling stock is too
cumbersome and there's a lot of line entanglement (which removing the
Bankstown line and the Epping-Chatswood line from the system helps to ease.
The performance of the suburban system will improve in the longer term.

Tony P

On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 15:17:06 UTC+11stuart....@... wrote:

> Dissenters will always be a very tiny bubble. It's only us Roundheads on

> TDU who will argue this until we run out of air, everyone else on the train

> has lives to lead and things to do, the train barely registers on their

> personal radar.


> Riders on the NWRL love it because it is a train; it happens to be a metro

> but they would love anything that runs on rails. They've been starved of

> good rail transport for decades and now they have something so of course

> they love it (they'd probably love it more if they could get a decent seat

> and didn't have to stop at every hole between Tallawong and the city but

> that's merely my opinion :)


> Satisfaction surveys are about as reliable as political polls. Remember

> that one that said the next PM would be Bill Shorten???


> SK


> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 14:59 TP histor...@...> wrote:


>> I'm not going to try run a rational argument against one that distorts

>> facts. In the end, it's the regular commuters who will vote on it and the

>> experience and feedback in the NW suggests that they love it very much and

>> that's from people who experience both systems, so have an actual regular

>> daily-experience basis for comparison, not "feelings" based on infrequent

>> out-of-peak visits. Let's just wait until the rest of the line opens in a

>> couple of years or so and we'll find out that the dissenters turn out to be

>> in fact a tiny bubble.


>> The last TfNSW customer satisfaction survey results were 98% overall

>> satisfaction with ferry services, 96% for metro, 91% for buses and 90% each

>> for light rail and suburban rail. One of the highest points of satisfaction

>> with the metro service (99%) was journey time for the distance travelled.

>> One of the lowest scores on the suburban system (90%) was journey time for

>> the distance travelled - and that would be semi-express travel for longer

>> distances. The suburban system also scored only 88% on frequency of service

>> (cf. metro 95%) and 91% on personal space (cf. metro 95%). But let's not

>> let the facts stand in the way of a good story.


>> I guess the next angle of attack then has to be on unthinking, ignorant

>> commuters who "don't understand" how "bad" they have it on the metro.


>> Out of interest, overall customer satisfaction with suburban trains has

>> been pretty level since 2016, bus satisfaction has been rising slowly,

>> ferry and metro satisfaction have been consistently high (the latter over

>> two years) and light rail satisfaction has been slowly declining, poor

>> frequency and overcrowding being the main areas of dissatisfaction (that

>> would be mainly IWLR). Journey time is not a strong point either and that

>> was mostly before the advent of CSELR set new low standards.


>> Tony P


>> On Wednesday, 13 January 2021 at 12:49:47 UTC+11 Richard Youl wrote:




>>> Whoopee-Doo-Deeee! 🎉🎊


>>> 95 years of advances in electric railway technology will produce trains

>>> 4 minutes faster than what the weak old single deck trains could manage in

>>> 1978, call it a two minute saving when you subtract the two less stations

>>> to be served.


>>> Sure, there will be more trains. But that’s a hollow victory for

>>> commuters, arguably those were the tightest daily schedules, who will lose

>>> their express trains, not to mention anyone travelling between stations on

>>> opposite sides of Bankstown who will now have to change trains at that

>>> station to continue their journeys. I’m sure that regular commuters know

>>> what time their expresses run and get themselves to the station in time.


>>> With only longitudinal seats, like it or not but passages will be

>>> subject to the lateral forces of acceleration and braking on top of the

>>> delight or potentially having somebody’s bottom inches from your nose!


>>> I could not really find out how much the Bankstown conversion cost will

>>> be although one estimate of $7 billion seemed a bit high, but it certainly

>>> will not be cheap.


>>> Small carriages means more wheels, motors, doors and other equipment to

>>> maintain, not to mention all the station doors. These are ongoing costs

>>> which must be greater than for the existing double deck fleet because of

>>> the numbers involved and extra equipment needed.


>>> Sure, extend the Metro but build it into some area currently with only

>>> road public transport serving the needs of the populace but leave Bankstown

>>> alone, although now it is too late for that.


>>> It seems like an enormous expense just to get rid of some train drivers

>>> and guards.


>>> Regards,







>>> On 12 Jan 2021, at 1:08 pm, TP histor...@...> wrote:



>>> It's a funny world nowadays. In my day, a faster, more frequent commuter

>>> service was considered to be progress; nowadays, to some (but I suspect not

>>> the vast majority) it's apparently not. The metro will cover

>>> Bankstown-Central in 28 minutes, stopping at every one of eleven

>>> intermediate stations. I imagine the initial timetable will be every 4

>>> minutes in peaks and 10 minutes off-peak, with six-car trains with a

>>> capacity of 1,100 including seats for 378. The system has a design capacity

>>> for eight-car trains (1,500 passengers including 504 seats) every two

>>> minutes. So, just in terms of seats (which represent only about 1/3 of

>>> total capacity), the service will initially deliver 5,670 seats per hour

>>> (15 trains) in peaks and 2,268 seats (6 trains) per hour off-peak (bearing

>>> in mind off-peak trains are usually far from full), with a design maximum

>>> capacity of 15,120 seats per hour.


>>> Let's look at the current service and I'll choose the 0730 to 0830 time

>>> slot to assess peak figures and after 0900 to assess off-peak. The

>>> eight-car trains have about 900 seats.


>>> Now, the first thing you have to do is choose where you want to live

>>> very carefully, because not every train serves every station. If you want

>>> the best possible service, you need to live at Bankstown, Sydenham or

>>> Redfern. These suburbs get 9 trains an hour in peak and 6 off-peak, which

>>> is 8,100 and 5,400 seats per hour respectively. Your journey takes between

>>> 26 minutes (on trains that only stop at four stops) and 35 minutes for

>>> trains that stop at all stops. The catch with the fastest trains is that

>>> you have to wait a bit for them - about 10 minutes in peak and 30 minutes

>>> off peak, which sort of cancels the journey time gain. In addition, if you

>>> want to get off at a station along the line that is bypassed by the

>>> semi-expresses, all calculations go out the window. It's Central or bust.


>>> On the other hand, if you live at Wiley Park, Canterbury or Hurlstone

>>> Park, you're waiting about 15 minutes for a train and then the trip takes

>>> 35 minutes - about 3,600 seats per hour. Between those two extremes there's

>>> a random mixture of stations that the faster trains stop at, almost like

>>> somebody blindfolded randomly tossed darts at a map of the SW suburbs, but

>>> Lakemba, Campsie and Marrickville are the most favoured. Journey times and

>>> seats are obviously in a range between the two extremes.


>>> So the outcome is that the discrepancy in seating per hour is not

>>> anywhere as extreme as made out by metro opponents and is more than

>>> compensated by a faster journey, at greater frequency and with the

>>> convenience of stopping at all stations. I think you'll find, as in the

>>> NSW, most people will be more than happy on the basis of these extra

>>> benefits.


>>> Tony P


>>> On Tuesday, 12 January 2021 at 12:13:30 UTC+11gnhan...@...

>>> wrote:


>>>> I wouldn't be happy if I was a regular Bankstown line user.


>>>> Regards Geoffrey

>>>> ------------------------------

>>>> *From:*tramsdo...@... tramsdo...@...> on

>>>> behalf of TP histor...@...>

>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 11 January 2021 10:33 AM

>>>> *To:* TramsDownUnder tramsdo...@...>

>>>> *Subject:* [TramsDownUnder] Re: Impact of Sydney Metro project will

>>>> ‘shock everyone’, NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance says | Gold Coast

>>>> Bulletin


>>>> Two to be exact: faster journey and more trains per hour.


>>>> Tony P


>>>> On Monday, 11 January 2021 at 17:24:56 UTC+11 Richard Youl wrote:


>>>> I’m sure the Bankstown train travellers will be shocked in more ways

>>>> than one!







>>>> Regards,



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