Re: Newcastle Trams
  Dudley Horscroft

Thanks Bob. I originally tried "Sydney Tramway Museum" and gave up when I noticed that the page hadn't been updated since about
1999. No info re book sales.

Following receipt of your email I tried again and found the correct site (the other was the Railpage site). However, still no info
re books for sale. Site says that snacks etc are available at the kiosk. Checked another site - "Shopshare - or something like
that, and finds that it is not an official STM site, but a commercial site re attractions in the Sydney area (I think). It does at
least mention that the kiosk has a range of books on sale, as well as postcards and food, but no link to any catalogue or the like.
Pity. If the STM has a kiosk with books for sale, perhaps it would be worth while putting a link to the catalogue on their site.
At least then people could find out what there is for sale, and order - by email, letter or phone as may be possible - when the
kiosk is open. So I will await the interlibrary loan for the time being.


Dudley Horscroft

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Merchant" robert.merchant@...>
To: TramsDownUnder@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams

It is still available from the Sydney Tramway Museum...

Bob M

----- Original Message -----
From: Dudley Horscroft
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams

Thanks, but it is no longer listed on the ARHS catalogue. I have tried some tramway museums, but apparently no copies. The City of
Sydney Library has a copy so I have put in an interlibrary loan request.


Dudley Horscroft

----- Original Message -----
From: bblunt@...>
To: TramsDownUnder@...>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams

> It was listed as available from the ARHS Sydney bookshop a couple of

> months back, and can probably also be obtained from Tram Museums.


> Many of Keenan's early books have been reprinted in recent times and are

> also available.


>> It should be available at the nsw rail transport bookshop amongst others.I

>> got mine from David direct it came out in hard cover and soft cover





>> ________________________________

>> From: Dudley Horscroft transitconsult@...>

>> To:TramsDownUnder@...

>> Sent: Mon, 9 November, 2009 2:02:22 PM

>> Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams


>> Â

>> Thanks, Peter.


>> I had never heard of the book, suppose it may be out of print, but will

>> try from our local library. It would be good to get my

>> suppositions confirmed!


>> Better still, I have checked with the National Library catalogue and find

>> it was written 1999. Should be still available then, and

>> probably from a cheaper library than the National Library.


>> Thanks again


>> Dudley Horscroft


>> ----- Original Message -----

>> From: "Peter Brewer" <prbrewer2003@ au>

>> To: <TramsDownUnder@ yahoogroups. com>

>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:19 AM

>> Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams


>> Try the Tramways of Newcastle book By David Keenan


>> ____________ _________ _________ __

>> From: Dudley Horscroft <transitconsult@ au>

>> To: TramsDownUnder@ yahoogroups. com

>> Sent: Sun, 8 November, 2009 11:13:09 PM

>> Subject: [TramsDownUnder] Newcastle Trams


>> I've gone back to the Curve and Gradient Book, and checked on the Speers

>> Point Line. For about half the length of the line, it is

>> in fact on a road. However, "Speers Point Road" does not exist according

>> to Google!


>> There are oddities regarding the distances on these lines (the disused

>> steam lines).


>> The main Wallsend line shows its junction with the steam line to West

>> Wallsend just past Wallsend Depot at 8m 37c, on a gradient on

>> 1:42. Fair enough. The West Wallsend steam line has its mileage starting

>> back at John St, and at the corresponding point, at

>> Wallsend Depot, the mileage is given as 0m 27c, as near as I can make out.

>> There is no indication where the junction for the Speers

>> Point line is (was). On the main line, from the same point on the John St

>> section as the West Wallsend line starts, at about 8m

>> 10c, the curves shown are 175'A, 90B, 550A, 90A, 90A. Here 'A' and 'B'

>> refer to the direction of the curve - not certain which is

>> left or right heading away from N'cle. On the West Wallsend diagram, the

>> same series are shown as: 550'A, 90'B, 550'A, 90'A. A

>> long loop - about 8 chains, is shown at the Depot - not shown on the main

>> line diagram.


>> Loops are shown at 0m 45c, 2m 3c, 3m 35c, and close to the end at 7m 38c.

>> This argues for a lot of short workings, or a very odd

>> service!


>> The Speers Point Line branches off the West Wallsend line at 2m 65c

>> approx. from where not stated. However, there is a stop -

>> Cockle Creek, perhaps, where two distances are shown. These are 12m 33c

>> 39.80 links from N'cle, and 4m 36c 60.59 links. By

>> subtraction, this gives the zero point for mileage on the Speers Point

>> line at 7m 76c 79.21 links from N'cle. Looking back at the

>> Wallsend Line, this is a nearly totally undistinguished spot on Robert

>> Street in Wallsend - perhaps where the gradient changes from

>> level to down at 1:30.


>> While there is no indication of the location of Speers Point Road, perhaps

>> a good estimate may be made. Near the end there is a

>> series of cross roads - First, etc to Seventh. Between 3rd and 4th Sts

>> there is a curve left, heading towards N'cle, and some way

>> after 7th Street there is a curve right. This is consistent with the

>> curves and roads on "Main Road" in "Boolaroo" a suburb just

>> north of Speers Point. No other road fits this pattern. Further south, on

>> Main Road there is a left bend at "Lakemac Print" - to

>> the east of which is Council Street. I would envisage that at one time

>> Council Street was intended to run through to Main Road,

>> where the intersection is identified as First St. Again further south,

>> Google shows Nord St and Speers St at approximately the

>> correct locations for 2nd and 3rd Sts. After 3rd St, about 4 chains south,

>> there is a long 2 chain curve to the left, looking

>> towards N'cle. The length of the curve is about 5 chains, which means that

>> the track has curved through around 140 degrees. This

>> is consistent with a turn through the site of " Pippi's at the Point" and

>> leads into Mary St heading NW. After one chain on this

>> alignment, there is another bend to the right, to roughly west, and to the

>> south of the western leg of Mary St. Then another

>> curve, to the left facing N'cle, and the start of the terminal loop. I

>> would imagine that the terminus was on the Esplanade,

>> approximately at the "non"-junction with Mary Street - the latter does not

>> actually join the Esplanade.


>> Working in the other direction, the route follows Main Road, and then Lake

>> Road, pretty well, including showing the S bend at the

>> overbridge at Cockle Creek Station. By the Argenton Hotel - a landmark

>> still standing after 80 or more years - there is another S

>> bend, and then a short distance later the line turns on to "Private

>> Property" . I think that this is immediately to the east of

>> Elizabeth Street, and the 7 chain curve to the left is suitable to place

>> the line on a track curving away to the north of Lake Road.

>> This is consistent with the lane way behind the houses on Park Street,

>> between them and the golf course. The line crosses the route

>> of the "Young Wallsend Railway" with a "Passenger Landing", and crosses

>> Brush Creek. The line continues dead straight, and on

>> Google it merges with Frederick Street as far as Clare St. In the vicinity

>> of Clare Street, the road bends - but this is not shown

>> on the diagram, and I suspect that there is a page missing from the

>> Diagram - which would be consistent with the mileage apparently

>> starting at about 2m 65c. The label here - "Junction with West Wallsend

>> Line" would appear to be completely erroneous. Frederick

>> Street eventually peters out, and a track continues, which with several

>> bends, appears to continue round the site of Elermore Glen

>> retirement village, and then to the west of the Seventh Day Adventist

>> Church. Then a housing estate - with unnamed roads - appears

>> to have been built on the line, which then, perhaps, continues N of

>> Dorrigo Road, heading 040, passing the end of Turrama St, and

>> parallel to Namer, or Narner St, then crossing the Newcastle Link Road,

>> and then becoming Cowper St, leading into the centre of

>> Wallsend.


>> Most of this previous paragraph is extremely speculative, but I think a

>> fair guess. Without a good 1930's map, or the missing part

>> of the Diagram,. I suspect it is the best that can be done. Of course, i

>> is always possible that the missing section is in fact the

>> West Wallsend Line for the first 2m 65c. A possibility to be investigated

>> if I ever get the time. Trouble is I don't know the

>> starting or finishing points, and there are even fewer clues to work from!


>> Regards


>> Dudley Horscroft


>> Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger







>> __________________________________________________________________________________

>> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.

>> Enter now:





> ------------------------------------


> Yahoo! Groups Links